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Forums - General - Society lets you go from an asshole to "truther" with one word

Aielyn said:

But you see, that isn't about the gender, it's about the act involved.

"She was at that seedy bar downtown and got stabbed. She really needs to stop hanging out with those people." -- Common sense.

"He was at that seedy bar downtown and got raped. He really needs to stop hanging out with those people." -- Victim blaming.

Of course, that's following YOUR assertion. I would describe both cases as victim blaming, but with rape being a worse case of victim blaming. Why? Because stabbing isn't an act of subjugation, it's an act of violence. Rape is an act of subjugation (which isn't to say that rape can't be violent - just that the intent with rape isn't generally violence).

 

On the topic in general, I would say that it's being misrepresented in the same way - confusing "not quite as bad" with "acceptable". Saying that all white people are criminals is wrong, just as saying all black people are criminals is wrong. But saying it about black people is worse, not because it's any more false, but because it perpetuates existing stereotypes and reinforces attitudes that harm the disadvantaged.

Besides which, most uses of the "reverse" cases are intended either as a way to demonstrate the hypocrisy of those who would use the "typical" cases, or as humour playing off the "typical" case being reversed. And the exceptions are usually said by the kinds of people who believe in "an eye for an eye" - it's being said as a kind of retribution.

On the other hand, most of the "typical" cases are being stated by people who are simply prejudiced/racist/etc. There are exceptions for that, too. And sometimes, it's considered acceptable to make those statements.

And incidentally, "I don't prefer skinny people" would be considered just as unacceptable as "I don't enjoy fat people" because they're both body-shaming. Saying that you personally find thinner or fatter people more attractive is fine, but saying that they are inherently less or more attractive would be unacceptable.

Also note that the last example, of "conservatives are stupid", would be considered unacceptable by the same people who say "liberals are stupid" (and usually throw around phrases like "libtard" - which really just demonstrates the stupidity of the person using the phrase, given that it's not even a clever portmanteau, and unoriginal to boot - note that this is about the specific people using these phrases, not conservatives in general).

 

EDIT:

The point Binary Solo is making is that people may use a knife to defend themselves - it is possible that the stabbing was done in self-defense. The stabbing could potentially be an unfortunate end result of someone doing something justifiable - defending themselves.

Can you think of any situation in which rape is justifiable?

I never said it was about the gender.  What are you talking about?  And subjugation is automatically worse than being stabbed?  That's interesting.

Oh, yes, that's probably it, I wasn't being complicated enough, I should have put i a full page of qualifiers.  Goddamn, people.  Talk about sophistry and avoiding a point just to be contrary.  It's not even worth trying to have a conversation.  If you say a cat has soft fur someone will say, "but what if the cat was playing in tar in and got all crusty?  That has to be considered."  Fuck, you're right, he deserved to be stabbed.  We'll just assume that.  Conversation over.



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Double standards..life's full of them.



hershel_layton said:
the-pi-guy said:
Why don't we just be nice to.... everybody?

Because in the world of SJW's and tumblerinas, we must respect everyone equally as long as you're not:

Intolerant

Bigoted

An Asshole

And i get that on some level it is hypocritical to be intolerant of intolerance but that's a fight worth fighting.



hershel_layton said:
JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

1) are you talking about the 75 cents per dollar thing?

 

2) No one likes people who talk too much. period. 

 

3) Healthier? I'm quite sure having your rib cage visible or have layers of fat isn't healthy at all. Then again, I don't know how humans think. I avoid social media and magazines a lot, so perhaps my ignorance may show due to not being more interested in the social world.

 

4) I understand some people have more advantages over the other. It's irritating when people use double standards

 

Here, look at this study: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

 

it's shown that blacks(even though they're only 20% of the population) commited 50% of all crime. Is that an issue? Of course it is. However, I will not ignore the fact that whites commited 40%, which is also a high number. Some people will choose to ignore anything a minority does and nitpick all mistakes from others. Whether if it'd be against men, whites, CIS, heterosexuals, Christians, and so on, I think the left has corrupted our process of judgement with a "agree or be an enemy" viewpoint.

It seems you just skimmed over my post as briefly as possible to pluck some quotes out of context so that you could get back on your soapbox.  



jigokutamago said:
JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

That's a valid point. Because there is so much negativity surrounding certain groups of people, contributing to that negativity seems to hurt more. Ideally however, I think it is best not to speak ill of anyone. Just because someone is not usually spoken ill of, I don't think it would be right to start speaking ill of them, which will surely not lead to anything good.

Ideally, yes.  But until we live in an ideal world, we have to take power structures into account.  If a three year old said to a 20 year old man "I'm going to beat the shit out of you" they'd get a scolding, and you'd probably find it funny.  If the situation was reversed, you'd probably get child services or the police involved.  Power makes things different.

Dunban67 said:
JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

There are laws on the books in some states  that can send you to jail for spitting on the sidewalk but i ve never heard anyone going ot jail for it

Women benifit from affirmative action-  ie in many colleges and companies a woman with equal or lesser scores/experience/resume etc will gain admittance to a school or be given a job/promotion ahead of the very men "in power" you mention

re body type-  can t argue w you there

one person s opportunitty comes at the expense of anothers-    over time the cream rises to the top naturally-   there is nothing wrong with letting it happen naturally-   but people are afrad of what it will look like- 

We're not talking about obscure laws on the books.  We're talking about laws that are still subject of fierce legal debate.  It's not like they're investing so much into pushing these laws that they're not enforcing.  As for women having an advantage in getting jobs, nah.  There are of course some instances where this may occur, but when you factor out things it's definitely not in their favor.

And no, the cream doesn't always rise to the top.  You're assuming people start out evenly, and they just don't.  To give an extreme example, you could obviously look at slavery.  I'm sure there were a lot of blacks that were qualified to do things that were never able to rise to the top naturally.

binary solo said:
JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

I disagree, all of the examples in the OP are bad.

Lemme think. Making critical comments and jokes about a currently and or historically oppressed demographic, by a member of the demographic who used to be, or still is, the oppressor is more likely to be objectively offensive and inappropropriate and assholish than being critical or making jokes about the oppressor demographic. Seems pretty legit to me. I don't really understand why people don't get this. But still making broad negative generalisations about the worth of any demographic group is, generally, entirely inappropriate and is pretty much never absolutely fine. Which is why even if some of the exmaples in the OP are less badly wrong than others, they are all still wrong.

Humour does not exist in a vaccuum and it can be used to further belittle and denigrate an already disadvantaged group, or person.

It's also ignoring the ability humor has to be subversive.

But people want to oversimplify things to laughable extremes.  Let's ignore the centuries of slavery, the fact that women gained the right to participate in government less than a century ago, and that within about a half century homosexuality was punishable by imprisonment or castration in some places (and still is in some places).  

I'm not saying that straight white males have to go around with their heads hanging down apologizing to everyone, but we do have to accept that our actions have created a situation where the words all insults are not equal.  



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JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

As a gay person I want my homophobic employers to be able to fire me. I want to expose him/her for his/her homophobia. I don't want to work and benefit a homophobe. We live in a time when being gay isn't a big deal for the majority of people, I am not worried about the underwhelming minority who aren't alright with it.

Women earn less than men, yes, but they don't have a lower wage. Earnings =/= wage. It is illegal to pay women a lower wage than men. Why do women earn less? They are not pressured to be bread-winners, they are not as money-centric as men, they have other priorities in life, they don't have motivation to put in 80 hour weeks and rather would spend their money, etc, etc. That is alright. Women and Men have different wants and needs. Women also have affirmative action to their benefit. I am sure it outweighs the negatives of being considered "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy." 

Is this true? I haven't experienced people with a lower BMI being considered healthier than people in the normal range. In fact for men this is certainly not true, being underweight is viewed down upon. Maybe compared to overweight people underweight people are viewed ideally, but there is good reason for that. Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the U.S. 

The "power" sociological position is ridiculous and holds very little force behind it for everyday people. The only people who see things that way are those who study a subfield of liberal arts in college. Racism, sexism, etc exist regardless of the structural power of a class of people historically. Most people see things on the individual level these days, and that is a good thing. Let's not regress here. 



@ OP It is a double standard, but they are really some of the most benign things that comes from SJW's. The reality is much worse than that. Probably the most racist/sexist/etc things SJW's actually say is to other minorities. If you don't go in line with their rhetoric and narrative, you are "confused", "don't know who you are", "a house n-word", or they start to sound like stormfronters with "race traitor", "gender-traitor", "LGBTQ traitor", etc. As if every single person born a certain way must think exactly like them. It is also no surprising that they love segregation, and want special rights for different classes of people. SJW's and stormfronters are the same type of people in my opinion, those who think entirely in classes/groups and see no value in the individual. Disgusting, to be honest.



sc94597 said:
JWeinCom said:

Well half of those are bad examples anyway... but...

In 28 states you can be fired for being gay without recourse. There are people actively fighting to keep it this way. Gay people can not share benefits with their partners, adopt, and so on.

Women earn significantly less than men and are often perceived as less capable despite being otherwise qualified. Studies have shown biases towards labeling women as "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy" even in cases where they have not been.

A skinny bodytype is definitely preferred. People underweight on BMI are perceived as healthier and more attractive than those within the normal range. Magazines photoshop already thing people to make them abnormally thin, then promise advice on how to reach these unattainable goals.

If you didn't realize when you were typing it, the common denominator in all of these examples is power. The top example is an example of people in power talking about the less powerful group. Quite often these groups have the power and influence to impose, or at least attempt to impose, their will on the less powerful group. So that's the difference here.

As a gay person I want my homophobic employers to be able to fire me. I want to expose him/her for his/her homophobia. I don't want to work and benefit a homophobe. We live in a time when being gay isn't a big deal for the majority of people, I am not worried about the overwhelming minority who aren't alright with it.

Women earn less than men, yes, but they don't have a lower wage. Earnings =/= wage. It is illegal to pay women a lower wage than men. Why do women earn less? They are not pressured to be bread-winners, they are not as money-centric as men, they have other priorities in life, they don't have motivation to put in 80 weeks and rather would spend their money, etc, etc. That is alright. Women and Men have different wants and needs. Women also have affirmative action to their benefit. I am sure it outweights the negatives of being considered "chatty", "talkative", or "gossipy." 

"Perceived as healthier", aren't they? Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the United States, and a leading cause in other first-world countries. Sorry, this is an anti-scientific position to insinuate that the healthiness of overweight people on average when comparerd to skinny people is subjective. 

The "power" sociological position is ridiculous and holds very little force behind it for everyday people. The only people who see things that way are those who study a subfield of liberal arts in college. Racism, sexism, etc exist regardless of the structural power of a class of people historically. Most people see things on the individual level these days, and that is a good thing. Let's not regress here. 

Good for you.  I'm sure other gay people would like to be able to keep their job in that situation.  Nobody is going to force you to work for a homophobic boss.  But if a gay person wants to work wherever they want for whatever reason, wouldn't you agree that they should have the right to do so if they are qualified?

You've basically proved my point about women.  You've demonstrated that you have a lower perception of their capabilities in the workplace than men.  Of course, if you have some data to back you up, then that'd be the truth and I can't really argue.  Otherwise, it's sexism, and the kind of attitude that can make advancement difficult.

For the sake of reference, what I meant by "chatty" and that stuff is in reference to a study.  Teachers (male and female) were asked to self report on how much the different genders spoke in class, and spoke out of turn compared to a researchers observations.  Teachers reported that females spoke more often in and out of turn when in fact males did more of both.  The teachers' bias influenced their view of reality, just like your insistence that women are less motivated likely influences yours.

Again, like the OP, you half read what I wrote because you wanted to make some sort of statement.  I specifically compared underweight people to people within normal weight range.  But please, do not let what I actually said get in the way of the point you want to make.

If you really don't think power matters in the grand scheme of reality than I don't even know what to say about that.  How people see things is irrelevant.  We live in a society where we do not only interact with eachother as individuals but as groups as well.  Often, the group identity is far more important than the individual identity. If you are in any doubt of this, go to a football game.  See how important group identity is and how easily people will turn on eachother for no other reason but preference of sports team. 

And if you're actually interested, look into the Milgram experiments and the Stanford prison experiment, or the bystander apathy experiment.



JWeinCom said:
hershel_layton said:

1) are you talking about the 75 cents per dollar thing?

 

2) No one likes people who talk too much. period. 

 

3) Healthier? I'm quite sure having your rib cage visible or have layers of fat isn't healthy at all. Then again, I don't know how humans think. I avoid social media and magazines a lot, so perhaps my ignorance may show due to not being more interested in the social world.

 

4) I understand some people have more advantages over the other. It's irritating when people use double standards

 

Here, look at this study: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

 

it's shown that blacks(even though they're only 20% of the population) commited 50% of all crime. Is that an issue? Of course it is. However, I will not ignore the fact that whites commited 40%, which is also a high number. Some people will choose to ignore anything a minority does and nitpick all mistakes from others. Whether if it'd be against men, whites, CIS, heterosexuals, Christians, and so on, I think the left has corrupted our process of judgement with a "agree or be an enemy" viewpoint.

It seems you just skimmed over my post as briefly as possible to pluck some quotes out of context so that you could get back on your soapbox.  

Uhh, what?



 

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12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

Normchacho said:

Was talking about gender in that specific example.

 

Edit: I should point out that your example isn't very good. When choosing something as personal as a significant other, any and everything becomes a factor. When a business is choosing an employee, race is not a legitimate factor in making that decision.

 

And of course it's our responsibility as individuals to work to make our lives better. But you can work through your disadvantages and speak up about injustices you see in the world around you.

Oh... right. By the way, who is more likely to be the victim of every other crime but rape?

I didn't mean my example as something equivalent in how serious it is. I meant that having a slight disadvantage is not the end of the world. Black guys can get women just fine and they can get jobs just fine. Especially when affirmative action gives them an advantage in the education system and some companies (like App... I mean... Orange, Inc.) are actively racist against white people. I'm not saying they don't have a slight disadvantage, but calling that oppression? Come on.

I agree about the last part, but the problem is that it's hard to know when some injustice is happening. If we take all the instances when people scream racism... how often is it actually racism? 1% of the time? 2%? How do you know that you didn't get the job because of your race? You can't. It is ALWAYS just an excuse to get rid of your responsibility over your failure. Same goes for people who scream a woman got the job because she'd slept with the HR guy - people don't like admitting they were not good enough.