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Forums - General - Women are not fit for front line combat!

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Why can't women be on the front line?

They're physically not fit. 62 32.29%
 
They can do it if trained properly. 102 53.13%
 
That's not women's duty. 12 6.25%
 
I'm weak so I can't fat... 16 8.33%
 
Total:192
Aeolus451 said:

It mainly depends on how deeply they believe something. Sometimes, it just take evidence or present your arguement in the right words or show them a line of logic to change their mind. Sometimes, nothing will sway 'em and that's fine because there's many different perspectives on many things and in most cases, there's no one truth or right way.

@bolded How would that be a good move? 

i can understand meeting hostility with hostility but not being hostile to someone who isn't unless you're trying to provoke them or eventually come to blows with 'em.

Totally agree with the first part. It's a battle of perspectives, not a search for truth.

@bolded: Emphasizes importance of the issue, inspires others to weigh in, prevents diffusion of the argument when you're winning and, indeed, even provoke the opposition to make mistakes. Can be a useful tactic.



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binary solo said:
Aura7541 said:

There's something called sexual dimorphism...

Indeed.

vs.

Clearly the man will win in a fight every time, right?

Fact is there is a large overlap in physical stature and fitness between men and women and just because the "average" woman is smaller and physically weaker than the "average" man doesn't mean physically above average women can't exceed the minimum physical criteria to be a frontline combat soldier.. it might only be 10% of women who can meet that criteria, but why deny those 10% the opportunity because of an appeal to averages.

You grossly, grossly underestimate the physical fitness and combat training that these soldiers are put under. 10% of men likely wouldn't be able to complete them. 

You compare elite vs. elite, as that's who they're working with. Honestly, I believe women play an active role in the military and they should, because they're able to contribute and fight. That said, this is a illogical defense to the facts of human physiology. 



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d21lewis said:
binary solo said:

That's a really dumb analogy, because the physical capacity of mean and women is a continuum from piss weak to very strong. Blackness and whiteness, in your analogy at least, is a binary condition.

The statement "all women are weaker than all mean" is so obvioously untrue that any suggestion that all women are too weak to serve in the frontline combat roles is patently ridiculous. Even if a majority of women couldn't cut it physically, a non-trivial minority can cut it.

Cut need some slack! I'm trying to work and post at the same time. I'll think of a better analogy.

I'll be interested to see if you can come up with one.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

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outlawauron said:

You grossly, grossly underestimate the physical fitness and combat training that these soldiers are put under. 10% of men likely wouldn't be able to complete them. 

You compare elite vs. elite, as that's who they're working with. Honestly, I believe women play an active role in the military and they should, because they're able to contribute and fight. That said, this is a illogical defense to the facts of human physiology. 

Yeah, this was what my original comment was getting at. It wasn't meant to demean women. I mean it's a fact that women need to maintain a higher body fat percentage than men or otherwise, they'll suffer serious complications. Men, on average, have more muscle mass in their upper bodies than women. That isn't to say women can't be on the front lines. If they meet the requirements, more power to them. It's just that men will have a larger representation simply because of biology.



binary solo said:
pokoko said:

Again, source.  Otherwise I'm going to assume you're making this up based entirely on your own preconceptions and that it has nothing to do with any official studies by the military.  If you do have a source saying that this is an observed behavior in military testing then I would like to read it.  

It's got nothing to do with the military. This is ingrained in our culture, in our popular culture and our historcal  gender division. These ingrained beliefs unconsciously affect our decision-making.

In terms of the study in that article there are some major biases in the study that make it a very flawed study, and the article identifies that.

"The average male Marine in the study weighed 178 lbs. and had 20% body fat. The average woman weighed 142 lbs. and had 24% body fat." Body fat is largely irrelevant, but if you pit a group of men with an averafge body weight of 178lbs vs a grou of men with an average body weight of 142lbs you will most likely get a similar outcome. Hence that is a methodological bias which will affect the outcome of the study which actually has nothing to do with gender. If your group of women had na average body weight of 178lbs and 24% body fat then my hypothesis is that there would be little to no difference.

Also "Officials cautioned against drawing too many conclusions from the study. Better training and screening could boost female performance, for example. "We can get better on injuries," Weinberg said. "We can get better on strength. We can get better on training." And "once women have had more experience in the infantry their performance will rise. "The women don’t have the training that men had to begin with,". 

The study was flawed. But importantly it showed that minimum standards can't be compromised to achieve some kind of quota. If the women are required to make the same standard as men squad gender make up should become irrelevant to performance.

So you're fighting the preconceptions of others with your own preconceptions.  Unless what you said was identified in the study then it had nothing to do with the results.  You have absolutly no idea if the soldiers in the test were being "white knights".  If anything, the article cited real, physical reasons why the male soldiers had to help some of the female soldiers.  No where did it imply that it was for less than professional reasons.

As for the part about the weight, you're really reaching.  Good luck getting a group of women averaging 180 pounds with 24% body fat.  That's unrealistic and isn't going to happen.  If women are going to participate in combat then they're always going to be smaller on average than men and they're going to have to deal with it.  No one stops to check your weight before they try to kill you.

Regarding the results of the study, they will never have perfect conditions.  Obviously they need to keep running the tests but you do not throw out the first results simply because you don't like them.  The spokesperson said they can improve on injuries, strength, and training; that's good, and I'm sure they're working on plans for that, but they still have to run through again and see if the work produces any real world results.  There is a bottom line here that's very serious, as it deals with the lives of human beings, and it has nothing to do with being fair.  If the integrated units improve to within an acceptable deviation then they should be given the greenlight.  If not then they need to re-evaluate.



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Psychotic said:

Yeah, this kind of talk was always there when a group previously forbidden to do something was suddenly allowed to do it.

When slaves were given freedom, many "experts" believed they were not good enough without the slavers feeding them. They were wrong.
When women were given the right to vote, many "experts" believed women couldn't understand anything and make good decisions because they were too busy menstruating and changing diapers. They were wrong.
When gay people were given the right to adopt children, many "experts" believed the kids would be bullied and depressed and suicidal and whatnot. They were wrong.

How about we skip it this time and just give them a f***ing chance? If women prove not to be capable enough, we can revisit the issue in 30 years.

Well, put, I have nothing really to add.  You could even go back futher and say people that don't own land shouldn't have the right to vote - as they don't have a vested interest in the country, etc.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

I think that if a women can perform at the level they are supposed to for a job like this they should be allowed, even if I think in the end it would be an all male thing

Point is, no rule other than "only the best are here" should apply, so if a women for some kind of reason can do it, they should



I am all for equal rights and all, but can anyone enlighten me why would woman actualy want to be in the front lines getting shot at, killing ppl and seing death and destruction from the front seat ? Id be glad if I were completly forbiden to go get shot in the face on the front line.



Whatever the evidence stacks up for.



DakonBlackblade said:

I am all for equal rights and all, but can anyone enlighten me why would woman actualy want to be in the front lines getting shot at, killing ppl and seing death and destruction from the front seat ? Id be glad if I were completly forbiden to go get shot in the face on the front line.

It's not about what they want, it's about what they can do.  And it's not just equal rights, it's also equal responsibility.