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Forums - Gaming - What I would like to see in the PS5 and PS4.5 (being a UHD blu ray player)

SvennoJ on 21 March 2016

Uhm, chroma 4:4:4 sampling is essentially the same as RGB in data transfer terms, just different color space on blu-ray. 10 and 12 bit color are already supported on XBox one perhaps ps4 too. I guess it is, it's called HDMI deep color (was already supported on ps3) Sony's 4K mastered blu-rays use XvYCC color space, 1.8x bigger than the standard rec.709, yet still limited by 8 bits encoding. (It's a clever extension on rec.709 that some tvs support)

But true, you need HDMI 2.0 for 10-12 bit 4K at 60fps. HDMI 1.4 tops out at 24fps 8 bit 4K.
However 4K UHD blu-ray movies still use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling and are limited to 10 bit. Still a big step up from blu-ray thanks to 10 bit color Rec.2020 yet not what you get in the cinema.

When you buy a 4K tv, make sure it has a 10 bit panel, otherwise the biggest advantage of 4K blu-ray is lost.

In theory a 4K 4:2:0 blu-ray should be able to be downscaled to 1080p 4:4:4 deep color, but I don't know if anything will do that.
(4K blu-ray has 3840x2160 gray scale, 1920x1080 color info compared to 1920x1080 gray scale, 960x540 color info on regular blu-ray)



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Moonhero on 21 March 2016

Man... I want 4k games. My 55" curved baby wants to blow my mind. That being said, just focus on a PS4 slim, and I will wait for PS5 to rush in and fulfill my needs.



Ask stefl1504 for a sig, even if you don't need one.

Qwark on 21 March 2016
Moonhero said:
Man... I want 4k games. My 55" curved baby wants to blow my mind. That being said, just focus on a PS4 slim, and I will wait for PS5 to rush in and fulfill my needs.

Better buy a pc than since I don't think the PS5 will be able to do anything above 2k at 60fps



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

SvennoJ on 21 March 2016

Here is a very interesting post from the blu-ray forum, proposing that 4K UHD playback could be possible in the existing ps4 via firmware updates.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=11821882&postcount=8

1) There is no such thing as a UHD drive, it's a modern version 2 drive that complies with the 2010 BD-R whitepaper. So any modern BD-ROM drive can be a version 2 drive if it can read a BD-R disk and UHD requires 4X read speed. There is a quote on this forum stating that PCs will not need a special drive to support UHD Blu-ray. The PS4 documentation says it can read BD-ROM and BD-R while the XB1 says it has a BD-ROM drive. (The Sony 2010 Patent for a version 2 drive states that a version 1 drive could read a version 2 disk with firmware update but maybe not reliably; PS3 has a version 1 disk.)

2) We know that the PS4 has a custom HDMI port that can support up to 120 FPS and HDCP takes place in the Southbridge TEE. There is a 2013 quote from a Sony employee that the PS4 supports a HDMI 2 port. (Firmware update-able to HDMI 2)

3) HEVC requires 1.5 times the GPGPU that h.264 requires and both the XB1 and PS4 have dedicated blocks of GPGPU compute using Xtensa DPUs and Microsoft has announced the XB1 supports HEVC profile 10. They do not mention it will be used for UHD blu-ray but for Netflix UHD IPTV.

Yet he's going against what Sony said

Masayasu Ito, who leads hardware engineering/operation for Sony Interactive Entertainment/PlayStation, said last year that it's not possible without updated hardware.

Microsoft's Yusuf Mehdi said in 2013 that the Xbox One would support 4K Blu-ray discs, but seeing as how that statement was made years ago and hasn't really been reiterated by anyone at MS since, I wouldn't put much stock into it.

Would be a strange change of pace when the XBox One gets 4k UHD blu-ray play back in an update while the ps4 is stuck to regular blu-ray.



Qwark on 21 March 2016
SvennoJ said:

Uhm, chroma 4:4:4 sampling is essentially the same as RGB in data transfer terms, just different color space on blu-ray. 10 and 12 bit color are already supported on XBox one perhaps ps4 too. I guess it is, it's called HDMI deep color (was already supported on ps3) Sony's 4K mastered blu-rays use XvYCC color space, 1.8x bigger than the standard rec.709, yet still limited by 8 bits encoding. (It's a clever extension on rec.709 that some tvs support)

But true, you need HDMI 2.0 for 10-12 bit 4K at 60fps. HDMI 1.4 tops out at 24fps 8 bit 4K.
However 4K UHD blu-ray movies still use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling and are limited to 10 bit. Still a big step up from blu-ray thanks to 10 bit color Rec.2020 yet not what you get in the cinema.

When you buy a 4K tv, make sure it has a 10 bit panel, otherwise the biggest advantage of 4K blu-ray is lost.

In theory a 4K 4:2:0 blu-ray should be able to be downscaled to 1080p 4:4:4 deep color, but I don't know if anything will do that.
(4K blu-ray has 3840x2160 gray scale, 1920x1080 color info compared to 1920x1080 gray scale, 960x540 color info on regular blu-ray)

Also make sure it's HDR ready since that's also supported on UHD blu ray. As for 4:2:0, the UHD blu ray players themselves are upgrading the footage towards 4:4:4 or at least the samsung and Panasonic are going to do that. Although I must say I am not hapy about the fact that a player needs to do such a thing, oh well software updates might fix that one. As for the theorie, it could work, but why they not make sure it 3840x2160 4:4:4 (colour and luminance/grayscale) is truely beyond me.



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

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SvennoJ on 21 March 2016
Qwark said:
SvennoJ said:

Uhm, chroma 4:4:4 sampling is essentially the same as RGB in data transfer terms, just different color space on blu-ray. 10 and 12 bit color are already supported on XBox one perhaps ps4 too. I guess it is, it's called HDMI deep color (was already supported on ps3) Sony's 4K mastered blu-rays use XvYCC color space, 1.8x bigger than the standard rec.709, yet still limited by 8 bits encoding. (It's a clever extension on rec.709 that some tvs support)

But true, you need HDMI 2.0 for 10-12 bit 4K at 60fps. HDMI 1.4 tops out at 24fps 8 bit 4K.
However 4K UHD blu-ray movies still use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling and are limited to 10 bit. Still a big step up from blu-ray thanks to 10 bit color Rec.2020 yet not what you get in the cinema.

When you buy a 4K tv, make sure it has a 10 bit panel, otherwise the biggest advantage of 4K blu-ray is lost.

In theory a 4K 4:2:0 blu-ray should be able to be downscaled to 1080p 4:4:4 deep color, but I don't know if anything will do that.
(4K blu-ray has 3840x2160 gray scale, 1920x1080 color info compared to 1920x1080 gray scale, 960x540 color info on regular blu-ray)

Also make sure it's HDR ready since that's also supported on UHD blu ray. As for 4:2:0, the UHD blu ray players themselves are upgrading the footage towards 4:4:4 or at least the samsung and Panasonic are going to do that. Although I must say I am not hapy about the fact that a player needs to do such a thing, oh well software updates might fix that one. As for the theorie, it could work, but why they not make sure it 3840x2160 4:4:4 (colour and luminance/grayscale) is truely beyond me.

True check that too, yet I imagine that a 10 it panel includes HDR processing as that's the main point of having a 10 bit panel.
You already have HDR capable sets with 8 bit panels. Still better than rec.709 yet missing out on finer color detail.

They don't make it 2160p 4:4:4 as that's too much data. 4k UHD discs top out at 100GB 128 mbps, only twice as big as a blu-ray discs with 2.37x the bandwidth. HEVC h.265 is up to twice as efficient as h.264, so at most you can compare it to 4.6x the bandwidth of blu-ray.
2160p 10 bit 4:4:4 is 10x the data of 1080p 8 bit 4:2:0 (as opposed to 2160p 10 bit 4:2:0 being 5x the data) You would need 256 mbps to properly support that and bigger discs to hold a full movie.

But yes, they could in theory. 4K Netflix only runs at 16.7 mbps (not sure if that includes the HDR layer, could be that was for the base layer, Netflix claims it HDR adds 20% at most anway) and people are already amazed by that. Compressing 4:4:4 a bit more heavily than 4:2:0 could still look better in slow scenes. 128mbps is over 6 times of what Netflix 4K is using.



SvennoJ on 21 March 2016

Here is an excellent summary and some logos to look out for when buying a tv

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/uhd-101-v2/


For consumer displays

  • Image Resolution: 3840×2160
  • Color Bit Depth: 10-bit signal
  • Color Palette (Wide Color Gamut)
    • Signal Input: BT.2020 color representation
    • Display Reproduction: More than 90% of P3 colors
  • High Dynamic Range
    • SMPTE ST2084 EOTF
    • A combination of peak brightness and black level either:
      • More than 1000 nits peak brightness and less than 0.05 nits black level
        OR
      • More than 540 nits peak brightness and less than 0.0005 nits black level (note the interesting “fudge” here, clearly something included in the spec for low light output OLED TVs…)

Sony uses it's own sticker

Interestingly, Sony, despite being a member of the UHD Premium alliance, has a different “sticker” that it is putting on it’s displays. We think they are doing this because they also have projectors, and to have a consistent “sticker” they need their own standard, since the projectors can’t hit the peak brightness / black level standards required for the UHD Premium “sticker”.

That leaves me with a bit of a dilemma. I was wondering why it took so long for 4K projectors to become affordable. I love watching movies on a projector, yet it seems they won't be able to support the brightness range. I guess what's good enough for cinema is good enough for me. 92" tvs will probably stay well out of my price range.


And a word of caution

There are multiple HDR standards at this point, and it is not clear which one will become dominant in the market. HDR10 and Dolby Vision appear to be the front runners, but there are others lurking in the wings such as Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG).

It’s quite the “evolving ecosystem” at this point. Even if you buy a display with both HDR10 and Dolby Vision (which limits you to flat panel TVs), the amount of light output the TV can put out will likely be on an upward trajectory for the next few years. The TVs you can buy now are limited to about 1,000 nits, but the Dolby Vision standard can see a future with 10,000 nit displays!

More about that in the article



Guitarguy on 21 March 2016
teigaga said:
nanarchy said:
I have a lot of doubt that physical media will exist in the next gen of consoles (except Nintendo's) and I would actually be rather disappointed if they wasted the money and effort to put a player in the next gen. UHD is far too niche at this point to bother with for a mainstream console, not to mention the horsepower to drive such a display for games in a console is a long way off (at least at affordable power efficient levels)

I'd say this year is like what 2004 was for HD. UHD TVs are now at mainstream prices and being pushed in all electronic stores. Theres a lack of content which means that people don't necessarily have a reason to pay that extra few 100 dollards to get the 4k TV over the 1080p one, but the transition to shops selling mostly 4k TVs will happen in the next few years. it only took a few years for 720p screens above the size of 30" to become extinct. Any console arriving in the next few years will be early for UHD but  certainly not too early. Being capable of 4k doesn't all games  will aim for it, it partially comes with the territory of more powerful hardware. Numerous PS3 games failed to hit 720p, let alone the 1080p the console was capable of.

UHD bluray is partially dead on arrival but I don't think it'll be that costly an endevour (its just a 3 layer BR disc) so PS5 will likely support it if it hasn't abandoned discs (it probably won't, digital is still not close to 50% of software purchases yet)

Good points but UHD Blu Rays being dead on arrival is due to those certain films being finished on a 2K digital intermediate and then up-rezzed to 4K, meaning it is not a genuine and pure 4K output. Hence why the current '4k' blu rays being only marginally superior than their 1080P counterparts.



SvennoJ on 21 March 2016
Qwark said:

Also make sure it's HDR ready since that's also supported on UHD blu ray. As for 4:2:0, the UHD blu ray players themselves are upgrading the footage towards 4:4:4 or at least the samsung and Panasonic are going to do that. Although I must say I am not hapy about the fact that a player needs to do such a thing, oh well software updates might fix that one. As for the theorie, it could work, but why they not make sure it 3840x2160 4:4:4 (colour and luminance/grayscale) is truely beyond me.

HDMI2.0 does support 4:2:0 though only at 50/60 frames per second (FPS). At 24 FPS 10 bit only 4:4:4 and RGB are supported.

Hence the player has to do the conversion.



SvennoJ on 21 March 2016
Guitarguy said:
teigaga said:

I'd say this year is like what 2004 was for HD. UHD TVs are now at mainstream prices and being pushed in all electronic stores. Theres a lack of content which means that people don't necessarily have a reason to pay that extra few 100 dollards to get the 4k TV over the 1080p one, but the transition to shops selling mostly 4k TVs will happen in the next few years. it only took a few years for 720p screens above the size of 30" to become extinct. Any console arriving in the next few years will be early for UHD but  certainly not too early. Being capable of 4k doesn't all games  will aim for it, it partially comes with the territory of more powerful hardware. Numerous PS3 games failed to hit 720p, let alone the 1080p the console was capable of.

UHD bluray is partially dead on arrival but I don't think it'll be that costly an endevour (its just a 3 layer BR disc) so PS5 will likely support it if it hasn't abandoned discs (it probably won't, digital is still not close to 50% of software purchases yet)

Good points but UHD Blu Rays being dead on arrival is due to those certain films being finished on a 2K digital intermediate and then up-rezzed to 4K, meaning it is not a genuine and pure 4K output. Hence why the current '4k' blu rays being only marginally superior than their 1080P counterparts.

No, 4K mastering has been going on for a while now. Plenty blu-rays already have 4k masters. Some have even been scanned at 8k from their 70mm source, while remasters are generally scanned at 4K from 35mm. There is only a small gap of the early naughties that is plagued with a 2K production chain. You will never see LOTR in proper 4K as that was all filmed and produced in 2K. However Ben Hur (1959) will look excellent in 4K.
Pretty much all movies are now filmed in 5k and mastered in 4K, 2K digital intermediates are a thing of the past.

It is early days and the list is still quite small.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lcd-flat-panel-displays/2202713-master-list-currently-available-4k-hdr-titles-will-updated-often.html