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Forums - Gaming - Your most conflicting game design choices

spemanig said:

I wouldn't compare achievement hunting to difficulty.

Like I said, you don't have to bust your knuckles. I don't. But no, you absolutely can't become intimate with a game, at least not a difficult game, without playing on the appropriate difficulty. You may think you know it, but you don't.

Cheevo hunting isn't easy that any baby on earth could do it, there are challenges to earn some and mechanics for others, some cheevos can be harder to collect than others and that would make sense than making all cheevos very easy or very hard entirely.

I don't bust my knuckles simply by choosing the average difficulty setting without a desire to go any higher, if the game prevents me from getting any further after hours, then I'll simply turn it down a notch and then resume rather than spoending hours doing a wax on wax off montage.

Appropriate difficulty is subjective though, you will likely claim I wouldn't know X game until I play on extra hard for example and yet I can look up all the changes made for said setting and understand how it works and determine whether or not I'd like it.



Mankind, in its arrogance and self-delusion, must believe they are the mirrors to God in both their image and their power. If something shatters that mirror, then it must be totally destroyed.

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Story-related forced characters. Xenoblade X, for example, let's you have a party of 4 characters incluiding your main one, but 2 of the 3 companions are forcefully Elma and Lin troughout all the chapters of the story. That's messed up, I wanna be able to use the party I want.



Also, two versión of the same game (Pokemon) that differ in way too little and still requiere you to trade between them to have everything you can.



spemanig said:
SvennoJ said:

If 80 hours of witcher 3 and 200 hours of fallout 4 is skimming over the details, then sure!
It depends on the game, with those I'm not invested in the actual fighting mechanics. Dark souls was good enough to do ng+++ Guacemelee was rewarding too with its difficulty. Most rpgs are not however, I play them to enjoy the world.

Anyway I tend to e apprehensive of games with fixed difficulty. You can ignore side quests if they're not fun. You can skip story if you're not interested. You can skip exploring if you just want to fight. Imo you should be able to skip boss fights too if you're more interested in all the other stuff.

Gameplay is always the most important detail.

Imo you shouldn't be allowed to experience the other stuff if you aren't interested in playing the game.

And there you have it. You do think difficulty is there as a skill test.

Why is it so difficult to understand that someone can be very much interested in playing a game, explore the world, enjoy the characters and their back stories, yet isn't interested in min maxing their armor and weapons or getting the timing exactly right when to use what attack, block, or effect. Unless you think gameplay is nothing more than fighting?

In GTA5 I skipped the drawn out fire fights, I was very glad for the option. Just jump of a building 3 times, skip and do the fun parts. Car chases, flying challenges etc. It was even better that it only skipped parts and you can still do the fun stuff before and after the shooting crap.
Games have become a mix of all kinds of different gameplay elements. Not everyone likes them all.

And while Dark souls is one of my favorite games, I dio wish you could skip certain boss battles. I had way more fun sparring with a random high level tower knigh for an hour, than overcoming a boss battle roadblock. One is optional of my choosing, the other simply stands in the way of what I want to do.
The same in witcher 3. I played on normal I think, story battles were easy anyway. Then I had plenty of time to take on optional quests 10 levels above me to play with the game's systems. No roadblocks in the story, can still experience all those 'nuances' on my own terms.



Wright said:

Scripted defeat is cheating. Especially when you totally can defeat the boss at that point.

I wouldn't call it cheating at all. It's a plot device. You're not supposed to win. That isn't a moment meant to challenge you. You're not being tested on anything.



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SvennoJ said:

And there you have it. You do think difficulty is there as a skill test.

Why is it so difficult to understand that someone can be very much interested in playing a game, explore the world, enjoy the characters and their back stories, yet isn't interested in min maxing their armor and weapons or getting the timing exactly right when to use what attack, block, or effect. Unless you think gameplay is nothing more than fighting?

In GTA5 I skipped the drawn out fire fights, I was very glad for the option. Just jump of a building 3 times, skip and do the fun parts. Car chases, flying challenges etc. It was even better that it only skipped parts and you can still do the fun stuff before and after the shooting crap.
Games have become a mix of all kinds of different gameplay elements. Not everyone likes them all.

And while Dark souls is one of my favorite games, I dio wish you could skip certain boss battles. I had way more fun sparring with a random high level tower knigh for an hour, than overcoming a boss battle roadblock. One is optional of my choosing, the other simply stands in the way of what I want to do.
The same in witcher 3. I played on normal I think, story battles were easy anyway. Then I had plenty of time to take on optional quests 10 levels above me to play with the game's systems. No roadblocks in the story, can still experience all those 'nuances' on my own terms.

No it's not a skill test. It's a barrier to entry.

Not every game is meant to be played and enjoyed by everyone. You aren't entitled to be able to finish or enjoy a game that sits above your skill level. If you're not at a level where you can play through a game, you don't deserve to experience why that game is good. Same with anything. Shakespeare shouldn't have the language simplified just because the majority of people aren't good enough readers to understand it. Beethoven shouldn't have to simplify his music because the masses aren't learned enough to appreciate it. If you don't "like" the games elements so much that it will block you from being able to finish it, there is no obligation from the developer to make a concession for your skill level. You're not the target audience. You're not meant to enjoy it. It's not a game design flaw that a game is too difficult for you. If you are unwilling to put in the work necessary to be able to play more games, you absolutely 100% shouldn't have to. You can absolutely enjoy playing games meant for your appropriate skill level as you should, but Devs are under obligation to dilute their game so that you able to play and experience a diluted, simplified, and inferior version of all that a game has to offer. You are not the target audience. Play something else where you are.

Now this is obviously only reference to games without difficulty options, which is what you were talking about. This is not saying that every game should be Shakespeare or Beethoven or Edgar Allan Poe or whatever, but that games that are meant to be Shakespeare or Beethoven or Allan Poe should stay games that are Shakespeare or Beethoven or Edgar Allan Poe, regardless of how many people are skilled enough to get through it. Read Harry Potter or listen to Queen or watch Star Wars instead. There are still plenty of pheoniminal works accessible to a wider demographic.



Jpcc86 said:
Story-related forced characters. Xenoblade X, for example, let's you have a party of 4 characters incluiding your main one, but 2 of the 3 companions are forcefully Elma and Lin troughout all the chapters of the story. That's messed up, I wanna be able to use the party I want.

Yeah, this was a design I couldn't stand about XCX.

I would've loved to have built a fully custom party for my own, but because the game requires Elma and Lin for the entirety of the main story, I only had room for one extra party member.

OT: Besides that whole limited customization thing, I guess I also find it weird that the hardest difficulty isn't available at the start. Some people just wanna have hell.



"Just for comparison Uncharted 4 was 20x bigger than Splatoon 2. This shows the huge difference between Sony's first-party games and Nintendo's first-party games."

spemanig said:
SvennoJ said:

And there you have it. You do think difficulty is there as a skill test.

Why is it so difficult to understand that someone can be very much interested in playing a game, explore the world, enjoy the characters and their back stories, yet isn't interested in min maxing their armor and weapons or getting the timing exactly right when to use what attack, block, or effect. Unless you think gameplay is nothing more than fighting?

In GTA5 I skipped the drawn out fire fights, I was very glad for the option. Just jump of a building 3 times, skip and do the fun parts. Car chases, flying challenges etc. It was even better that it only skipped parts and you can still do the fun stuff before and after the shooting crap.
Games have become a mix of all kinds of different gameplay elements. Not everyone likes them all.

And while Dark souls is one of my favorite games, I dio wish you could skip certain boss battles. I had way more fun sparring with a random high level tower knigh for an hour, than overcoming a boss battle roadblock. One is optional of my choosing, the other simply stands in the way of what I want to do.
The same in witcher 3. I played on normal I think, story battles were easy anyway. Then I had plenty of time to take on optional quests 10 levels above me to play with the game's systems. No roadblocks in the story, can still experience all those 'nuances' on my own terms.

No it's not a skill test. It's a barrier to entry.

Not every game is meant to be played and enjoyed by everyone. You aren't entitled to be able to finish or enjoy a game that sits above your skill level. If you're not at a level where you can play through a game, you don't deserve to experience why that game is good. Same with anything. Shakespeare shouldn't have the language simplified just because the majority of people aren't good enough readers to understand it. Beethoven shouldn't have to simplify his music because the masses aren't learned enough to appreciate it. If you don't "like" the games elements so much that it will block you from being able to finish it, there is no obligation from the developer to make a concession for your skill level. You're not the target audience. You're not meant to enjoy it. It's not a game design flaw that a game is too difficult for you. If you are unwilling to put in the work necessary to be able to play more games, you absolutely 100% shouldn't have to. You can absolutely enjoy playing games meant for your appropriate skill level as you should, but Devs are under obligation to dilute their game so that you able to play and experience a diluted, simplified, and inferior version of all that a game has to offer. You are not the target audience. Play something else where you are.

Now this is obviously only reference to games without difficulty options, which is what you were talking about. This is not saying that every game should be Shakespeare or Beethoven or Edgar Allan Poe or whatever, but that games that are meant to be Shakespeare or Beethoven or Allan Poe should stay games that are Shakespeare or Beethoven or Edgar Allan Poe, regardless of how many people are skilled enough to get through it. Read Harry Potter or listen to Queen or watch Star Wars instead. There are still plenty of pheoniminal works accessible to a wider demographic.

That's one hell of an elitist attitude you have there.

I've enjoyed the witcher books in English very much, but I guess I wasn't allowed to read it in a language I can understand and should have learned Polish instead. Damn me enjoying Stalker and Solaris with English sutitles, should have learned Russian before being allowed to watch those movies. I'm sure I missed many references to Russian history,  culture and various nuances in the language, yet I could still appreciate the work very much.

Games without difficulty options are just lazy design. There's no reason for them not to have them. I've enjoyed Ikaruga even though there's no way I can finish the game at the intended difficulty level. Games are for fun, not things you have to put in the neccessary work to be allowed to enjoy them.
When I go to a museum I don't get a skill test before I can enter the next room. Whether I understand the art or not, I can still apreciate it and enjoy it.

The only thing hard games with locked difficulty are good for is bragging rights. There are leaderboards and trophies/achievements for that. If it weren't for cheats back in the day when I was still learning to play, I might not have stuck around for many types of games.  Maybe you get enjoyment from beating some arbitrary barrier put in the way by a game. I get enjoyment from choosing my own barriers and don't care what Simon says. Different way to enjoy games I guess.

Btw how the heck do you simplify Beethoven? Do you mean you can only appreciate it in full 30-50 minute orchestra renditions?

But sure, if a developer says my game is only for those putting in the work and do exactly as I say, I can simply ignore it. Don't want to play anything from someone with that kind of attitude anyway.



SvennoJ said:

That's one hell of an elitist attitude you have there.

I've enjoyed the witcher books in English very much, but I guess I wasn't allowed to read it in a language I can understand and should have learned Polish instead. Damn me enjoying Stalker and Solaris with English sutitles, should have learned Russian before being allowed to watch those movies. I'm sure I missed many references to Russian history,  culture and various nuances in the language, yet I could still appreciate the work very much.

Games without difficulty options are just lazy design. There's no reason for them not to have them. I've enjoyed Ikaruga even though there's no way I can finish the game at the intended difficulty level. Games are for fun, not things you have to put in the neccessary work to be allowed to enjoy them.
When I go to a museum I don't get a skill test before I can enter the next room. Whether I understand the art or not, I can still apreciate it and enjoy it.

The only thing hard games with locked difficulty are good for is bragging rights. There are leaderboards and trophies/achievements for that. If it weren't for cheats back in the day when I was still learning to play, I might not have stuck around for many types of games.  Maybe you get enjoyment from beating some arbitrary barrier put in the way by a game. I get enjoyment from choosing my own barriers and don't care what Simon says. Different way to enjoy games I guess.

Btw how the heck do you simplify Beethoven? Do you mean you can only appreciate it in full 30-50 minute orchestra renditions?

But sure, if a developer says my game is only for those putting in the work and do exactly as I say, I can simply ignore it. Don't want to play anything from someone with that kind of attitude anyway.

I don't care if it's elitist. It's the truth of the matter. Not everything is meant to be enjoyed everyone. Skill isn't arbitrary.

And I hope you're joking about the "how do you simplify Beethoven" question.



spemanig said:

That's why so many people who actually like Souls games say Souls games aren't hard. Most "hard" games aren't actually hard themselves. At least not unbearably hard. People just think it's hard because these games take longer and are more difficult to become completely intimate and in sync with the nuances of their mechanic and they aren't patient enough to put in the time. The better you are at video games, the less time this process takes.

Yeah, Souls games are actually piss easy compared to some really hard games - they are just too tedious after a while, especially, like Svennoj said, if you have kids and not much time to play...and huge backlog waiting for you.