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Forums - Politics - Apple vs the FBI

LurkerJ said:
mornelithe said:

Other than, you know, the whole needing a warrant thing, yes, you're correct.  This was the decision Apple made, they will now have to fight tooth and nail against every request for access, made via whatever intelligence community.  So, if Apple really is all about the consumer and privacy etc... they should have no problem going to the mats w/ the intelligence community, every single time they make the request.

Apple has positioned itself as a market leader when it comes to securing the storage and transmission of data, previously that title belong to RIM. A position Google, and others, are actively seeking to share with Apple. Whether that positioning strategy is the result of competition or a sincere moral stance on the issue of privacy is not as important as whether big government can force tech giants to compromise their free market position and ensure all future encryption is readable by the FBI. Soon enough, others will fight the same fight.

Needing a warrent might make it seem OK for the FBI to make such demands but let's not forget that Apple is an international company, what happens when less progressive countries start taking down activists by publishing their dick pix. 

Big Government most certainly CAN force companies to compromise their position.  I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.  Congress could absolutely pass a law demanding all tech companies provide this to the Government, that's why the tech community is so concerned.  And to be honest, I'm rather mixed on it.  I do absolutely think privacy is important, but I also think it's important that the police/fbi etc.. are able to fully investigate crimes, including gaining full unfettered access to their electronics devices.  As I said previously, when Apple changed their OS in 2014, to make it infinitely more difficult to hack, they chose this path.  And it's up to them to fight it tooth and nail in every instance.  They better tread carefully though, the rammifications of this are much bigger than Apple's profit margins.



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mornelithe said:
LurkerJ said:

Apple has positioned itself as a market leader when it comes to securing the storage and transmission of data, previously that title belong to RIM. A position Google, and others, are actively seeking to share with Apple. Whether that positioning strategy is the result of competition or a sincere moral stance on the issue of privacy is not as important as whether big government can force tech giants to compromise their free market position and ensure all future encryption is readable by the FBI. Soon enough, others will fight the same fight.

Needing a warrent might make it seem OK for the FBI to make such demands but let's not forget that Apple is an international company, what happens when less progressive countries start taking down activists by publishing their dick pix. 

Big Government most certainly CAN force companies to compromise their position.  I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.  Congress could absolutely pass a law demanding all tech companies provide this to the Government, that's why the tech community is so concerned.  And to be honest, I'm rather mixed on it.  I do absolutely think privacy is important, but I also think it's important that the police/fbi etc.. are able to fully investigate crimes, including gaining full unfettered access to their electronics devices.  As I said previously, when Apple changed their OS in 2014, to make it infinitely more difficult to hack, they chose this path.  And it's up to them to fight it tooth and nail in every instance.  They better tread carefully though, the rammifications of this are much bigger than Apple's profit margins.

Yes, they can. I am not thinking otherwise. Just moving the conversation along. Will it happen? When will it happen? For how long can Apple stall them? All questions soon to be answered, I guess.  The next time Paris is under attack, the media will tell the public "This could've been prevented if we had access to the encrypted data" and the distressed people will jump on the bandwagon and whatever little support Apple, and others, have will be gone.

Terrorists don't even have to find alternative means of communications to carry out their plans. Concealing hidden messages in plain unecrypted readable English text can do the job just fine. And when even presented with all the data they want, why do you trust them make sound decisions? Hint: Iraq.

On the other hand, Google, Facebook, Windows 10 are legally obtaining more personal data than anyone else, and worse, it's their business model, but few people care. People are quick to scream "PRIVACY" on facebook while using Chrome. So is it really a big deal? Will Apple join the crowd and reverse their policies and make more money off their iPhones than they are making now?

Maybe the public actually trust those companies a lot more than the government, and that's justified, or maybe they just don't know what they are talking about.

Let's watch how this unravels. 



I don't think i have ever said this before but: Go Apple!



Cook says that going back on this is not an option: "We all know that turning back the clock on that progress would be a terrible idea"



Do people actually understand the implications of this order?

This isn't a search warrant, or a request for data. It's a mandate for Apple to write code. Considering that code is considered speech, and compelled speech is a violation of the first amendment, we already have strike 1.

Apple isn't some magic entity. If they were to comply with this order, they would have to force their very best security experts to write this code. In many cases, engineers who have dedicated their lives to things like digital security. How many will comply? How many will simply quit? Not hard to find jobs in that space these days.

How much damage would this do to Apple? First there's the cost of engineering this change, then there's potential lost sales, and then there's the costs that Apple will have to face when they send their engineers to court to testify in cases where this backdoor is used. How many software engineers signed up for that?

Also, it's completely pointless going forward. When you outlaw encryption, only the outlaws will have encryption. It's no different to guns or drugs. Anybody can load third party encryption apps onto their phones, that's impossible to block. The only people harmed by this would be the regular consumer.

And come on..... what are they hoping to find? The massacre was two months ago. Anybody involved in that will have left the country, or changed identities. Nothing of use will be on that phone.

Finally, you can not guarantee that the software will only stay in Apple's hands. You have any idea what the market value of that thing will be? People ain't saints. You're just asking for it to be sold into the black market.



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The thing is terrorists can encrypt their data on top with 3rd party programs there is nothing that can be done to stop that. And the government nor Apple would be able to decrypt them. This backdoor can be potentially misused and not just by the US Government.

Trade secrets stored on Phones could be extracted if it gets into the wrong hands and somebody sells it to people that would misuse it.

Other governments will be able to request the same from apple or block them from selling their products. I am on Apples side, data security is important for our civilization as a whole.

30 years ago people just burned documents and then there was no evidence. How did the Law enforcment handle this situation back then.

I think its not in the best interest of the US citizens for Apple to give in. Actually me as european I am happy that Apple is against doing this.



Interesting take on this here:

It's the county's phone, not the decedent. Also, the dead people have no rights to privacy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/opinion/seeking-iphone-data-through-the-front-door.html



mornelithe said:
Interesting take on this here:

It's the county's phone, not the decedent. Also, the dead people have no rights to privacy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/opinion/seeking-iphone-data-through-the-front-door.html

"Moreover, Apple’s position on privacy seems at odds with its own strategy of encouraging customers to pay to store personal data on iCloud, which is also vulnerable to hackers."

I am not sure what he means by "hacking". But for his information, Apple is taking similar steps to make the iCloud encryption stronger, and if those steps go uninterrupted, iCloud backups decryption will be impossible in the near future, making the data in the cloud immune to FBI requests. It's not a matter of hypocrisy, it's just that "progression" takes time...

And everyone seems to conveniently ignore the fact that even if Apple do what the FBI wants, terrorism will not stop. As I said before, Terrorists don't even have to find alternative means of communications to carry out their plans. Concealing hidden messages in plain unecrypted readable English text can do the job just fine. Let alone other more complicated languages.

 

"But when you are the two companies whose operating systems handle more than 90 percent of mobile communications worldwide, you should be accountable for more than just sales."

But they are accountable for more than just sales...

 

Maybe the FBI and the gov. need to be more accountable for more than just carrying out investigations, like you know, presenting false evidence of WMD. Being allies with countries with clear atrocious human rights records, what is ISIS without the Wahhabi version of Islam that they push with the US ,indirect, help.

 

In more recent news, Google, Twitter, Facebook, & Microsoft to file court motions officially supporting Apple in FBI fight.



mornelithe said:
Interesting take on this here:

It's the county's phone, not the decedent. Also, the dead people have no rights to privacy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/opinion/seeking-iphone-data-through-the-front-door.html

"Moreover, Apple’s position on privacy seems at odds with its own strategy of encouraging customers to pay to store personal data on iCloud, which is also vulnerable to hackers."

I am not sure what he means by "hacking". But for his information, Apple is taking similar steps to make the iCloud encryption stronger, and if those steps go uninterrupted, iCloud backups decryption will be impossible in the near future, making the data in the cloud immune to FBI requests. It's not a matter of hypocrisy, it's just that "progression" takes time...

And everyone seems to conveniently ignore the fact that even if Apple do what the FBI wants, terrorism will not stop. As I said before, Terrorists don't even have to find alternative means of communications to carry out their plans. Concealing hidden messages in plain unecrypted readable English text can do the job just fine. Let alone other more complicated languages.

 

"But when you are the two companies whose operating systems handle more than 90 percent of mobile communications worldwide, you should be accountable for more than just sales."

But they are accountable for more than just sales...

 

Maybe the FBI and the gov. need to be more accountable for more than just carrying out investigations, like you know, presenting false evidence of WMD. Being allies with countries with clear atrocious human rights records, what is ISIS without the Wahhabi version of Islam that they push with the US ,indirect, help.

 

In more recent news, Google, Twitter, Facebook, & Microsoft to file court motions officially supporting Apple in FBI fight.



LurkerJ said:
mornelithe said:
Interesting take on this here:

It's the county's phone, not the decedent. Also, the dead people have no rights to privacy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/23/opinion/seeking-iphone-data-through-the-front-door.html

"Moreover, Apple’s position on privacy seems at odds with its own strategy of encouraging customers to pay to store personal data on iCloud, which is also vulnerable to hackers."

I am not sure what he means by "hacking". But for his information, Apple is taking similar steps to make the iCloud encryption stronger, and if those steps go uninterrupted, iCloud backups decryption will be impossible in the near future, making the data in the cloud immune to FBI requests. It's not a matter of hypocrisy, it's just that "progression" takes time...

And everyone seems to conveniently ignore the fact that even if Apple do what the FBI wants, terrorism will not stop. As I said before, Terrorists don't even have to find alternative means of communications to carry out their plans. Concealing hidden messages in plain unecrypted readable English text can do the job just fine. Let alone other more complicated languages.

 

"But when you are the two companies whose operating systems handle more than 90 percent of mobile communications worldwide, you should be accountable for more than just sales."

But they are accountable for more than just sales...

 

Maybe the FBI and the gov. need to be more accountable for more than just carrying out investigations, like you know, presenting false evidence of WMD. Being allies with countries with clear atrocious human rights records, what is ISIS without the Wahhabi version of Islam that they push with the US ,indirect, help.

 

In more recent news, Google, Twitter, Facebook, & Microsoft to file court motions officially supporting Apple in FBI fight.

You responded to nothing I said, simply questioned the author.  I gave the link, ask them the questions.  Again, it's the county's phone, and a decedent has no right to privacy.  Apple should have and has had, in the past ways to access this information.  As was pointed out in the article, that access was never leaked to nefarious entities, Apple was able to maintain control.  There's no reason to suggest this would be any different unless Apple went leaving the keys laying around.

So what you're saying is that the Government should do nothing, because once, the Government did something bad?  Is that really where you're going with this?  And again, I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but neither the Police or FBI were involved in WMD's in Iraq.  Why you'd be tieing them into this, is an absolute lie, and a farcical stretch.  Especially considering the FBI has enough of it's own blunders in the past to account for.  Ruby Ridge, and  Waco, are certainly relevant (albeit dated at this point) topics w/ regards to the FBI, but WMD Iraq?  Yeah, that's CIA and White House, learn how these entities are separated, and learn that they aren't exactly buddy buddy with each other.

Also, you know, if the Government is this bad, then maybe Apple, Microsoft, Google, Twitter and Facebook should consider just how easy it would be for their families to disappear, piece by piece.