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Forums - Politics - Antonin Scalia dead at 79.

CosmicSex said:
thranx said:

And the senate has the power to approve or not approve suprem court justice. They should use that power as well. The president can propose who he wants, if the senate does not like them they should not approve them. And voting in a congress that is opposssed to the president is voting to take his powers away. Its the check and balances. We couldnt vote Obama out, but we could vote for people who mitigate his power by not enactiing or writing legislature that he would want. its the whole point of not having a king, but a system of checks and balances.

Sorry but the checks and balance system went out the window when they 'tried' to repeal the ACA for like the 50th tome. Thats not sound or logical or a good use of taxpayer money.  It the type of shit that makes you wonder why we pay taxes at all.

It's over 60 now, and let's not forget that the GoP controlled House forced a Government shutdown because they attached a repeal of Obamacare to a funding Bill, while changing House rules so that only the Majority leader or their designee could bring a motion to vote on a Senate bill.



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thranx said:
JWeinCom said:

Not sure what this rant has to do with anything.  

"No... the people have not spoken.  More democratic seats happened to be up that year (21 to 15) and fewer of the seats for democrats had incumbents. The seats up for reelection happened to be largely in the south,   Less people tend to vote during election years.  And of course, there are many factors that go into the senate races.  "

 

You are saying the people have spoken in favor of dems. I am saying you need to look at the whole picture. More state governers are repubs now than before the presidential election, congress has more repubs now than before. So the people have spoken, after 8 years of Obama and dems, the people have realized they made a poor choice in leadership and will now rectify the lat reamining spot of dem power in the white house.

 

So in other words, Obama should not apoint the next supreme court justice, the next president should. It the right thing, and its what a president of character would do. But Obama is not a man of character so I am sure he will whine along with the left about it. I can only hope that the republicans in congress do what is right, but I have doubt in that too. Maybe the next wave to overtake the political scene will be the tea party movement.

This concept that the president should not appoint a supreme court justice if there is evidence that within some amount of time the general political environment will not be his favor is an interesting one.  How far would you like that idea to go?  Considering the demographics of replublicans and democrats wouldn't the right thing for a republican president to do be to wait until a democrat is in office because his supreme court nominee will likely serve into the eventual political change as generations change?  I mean if we're going to wait a year why not wait 20 or 30 until that generation and demographic change which seems to be the inescapable death knell of social conservatism?  



...

AAA300 said:
JWeinCom said:

Except, that's not what they said.  They've said simply that Obama can't fill the vacancy at all.  This isn't a case of checks and balances, this is a case of the Senate outright refusing to fulfill their duty to help fill vacancies on the court.  Why shouldn't the Senate give any potential appointment an honest and fair evaluation, as is their responsibility? 

The fact that you want to ignore the 2012 election is ridiculous.  In 25 different terms in this century (out of 58), the president has had one or both parties representing the opposing party.  Not only is it possible for the population to vote one way with congress and another with the president, but it happens nearly half the time.  

And by the way, none of those 25 different congresses tried to obstruct the process in the way that is happening now.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Obama didn't run in 2014.  There are many factors involved in congress races, so to label this simply as "they voted against Obama" is a childish oversimplification to be charitable.  

And, what criteria may I ask do you use to claim the president should not be able to appoint a successor to Scalia?  Reagan was able to appoint in his last year.  Bush was allowed to appoint with a Senate controlled by the opposite party.  So on what criteria are you going to say that Obama should not be able to nominate ANYBODY to the court?

You don't read my comments!  I never said he could not appoint some one,only that I hope the Senate can delay. And no one ignored the 2012 election but as someone already pointed out and you ignored that we the people can't vote him out. And that's the reason in 2014 the people voted for the Senate to block him,as most Republicans ran on stopping Obama and Obama care. Also the Senate hasn't done anything yet and if Obama put forth a good candidate he/she would get threw. But as my original comments state no one in there right mind would think that Obama will appoint a moderate judge! So when they say they will block that's political talk for were not allowing a far left judge on the supreme Court. And they should do that because that's why they were voted in control of the Senate in the first place. Go figure a politician going to Washington and fulfilling its promises to stop Obama. It's ridiculous to ignore the 2014 election and as you said childish.

If you're hoping the Senate can delay, then you're hoping he can't appoint someone.  You didn't say "boy I hope the Senate evaluates the nominees well and appoints someone who represents the views of their constituents".  Nope, you just asked for a total shutdown of the process.

I can absolutely ignore that we the people can't vote him out.  Because we COULD have voted him out.  In 2012.  And we didn't.  So, until another election is held, or if he's impeached, then he's the president, and he has all the powers of the president.  We don't change the president, or strip him of powers, if public opinion changes.  That's just not how it works.  

As for why people voted how they did in the Senate races, I personally have no idea.  And, no offense, but I sincerely doubt that you were following all 33 elections close enough to know what platforms each candidate was running on.  

Several senators, including the majority leader, have outright ruled out any appointment from Obama.  As in, they're not willing to give any suggestion a fair hearing.  And, it's actually quite likely that Obama would suggest a moderate.  It's an election year, so he might want to put someone in now who is less liberal as opposed to risking someone like Cruz coming into office and voting in a hardline conservative.

And, I'm not ignoring any election results.  I'm suggesting that the senators who were voted in do the job they were voted in for.  That job is to give a fair and honest evaluation of any nominee to the supreme court.  I hardly think it is childish to expect elected officials to do their jobs.



Ganoncrotch said:
spurgeonryan said:
What does any of this that people are saying have to do with this person? He championed welfare?

He fed homeless Puppies I believe.

I can't tell who is trolling and who is not.



Much as I dislike form the Obamacare took. It was necessary unless democrats can force something stronger.

Government really need to put some control measure on US healthcare system to control the price, Obamacare didn't stopped increase, but it did slowed the increase down.

US public with their weird fetishes for small government need to understand it goes both way. US Government is too big on place it shouldn't, while too small where it matters. For now, expansion of government power is probably better for saving money - As long as it isn't military related.

That is my personal take.



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JWeinCom said:
SocialistSlayer said:

You are aware that the states are also subject to the constitution, right?  A great deal of supreme court cases involve people sueing the state.

Edit:  I'm not going to quibble over the examples.  I'm sure I could have looked up some supreme court cases to find better ones.  The point is that it is indeed perfectly constitutional for the government to compel people to do things, and that it is explicitly constitutional to tax people for the general welfare of the population.

No offense, but you are pretty ignorant in state vs federal. The guy you quoted is completely right. There is NO FEDERAL LAW on drinking age, seat belts, or speed limit. They were heavy handedly placed as requirements to receive federal road funding (so no the interstate commerce clause didn't apply).

 

Also, the national guard belongs to the governor and not the federal government. If a governor refused to commit his troops, there is no legal ramification. Again, they simply lose federal funding.

 

Following that precedent the ACA would be constitutional if they tied the requirement up to funding and let the states suffer if they didn't fall in line.



sabvre42 said:
JWeinCom said:

You are aware that the states are also subject to the constitution, right?  A great deal of supreme court cases involve people sueing the state.

Edit:  I'm not going to quibble over the examples.  I'm sure I could have looked up some supreme court cases to find better ones.  The point is that it is indeed perfectly constitutional for the government to compel people to do things, and that it is explicitly constitutional to tax people for the general welfare of the population.

No offense, but you are pretty ignorant in state vs federal. The guy you quoted is completely right. There is NO FEDERAL LAW on drinking age, seat belts, or speed limit. They were heavy handedly placed as requirements to receive federal road funding (so no the interstate commerce clause didn't apply).

 

Also, the national guard belongs to the governor and not the federal government. If a governor refused to commit his troops, there is no legal ramification. Again, they simply lose federal funding.

 

Following that precedent the ACA would be constitutional if they tied the requirement up to funding and let the states suffer if they didn't fall in line.

No offense, but don't come into a conversation calling someone ignorant, especially if you have no grasp on what's being discussed.

What we were discussing, before random people started popping in to talk about other things, was whether or not forcing people to do something is inherently unconstitutional.  The US constitution still applies at a state level, in accordance with article VI section 2 of the constitution.  So, whether or not the law is enacted by the state or federal government is totally irrelevant in the context of this conversation.  These examples (which were taken from the top of my head) show situations where the government compels people to do certain things, and the constitutionality of these laws have not been successfully challenged.  Hence, forcing people to do things can be constitutional.  I'm sure we could think of hundreds of situations where forcing people to do certain things is constitutional.  Taxes are especially constitutional as per article 1 section 8 of the constitution.

And nobody discussed the national guard at all, so I don't know why you're talking about it at all.

So really, don't show up and call me ignorant when you have a complete lack of context as to what the original conversation was about.  It's kind of rude.



CosmicSex said:
thranx said:

And the senate has the power to approve or not approve suprem court justice. They should use that power as well. The president can propose who he wants, if the senate does not like them they should not approve them. And voting in a congress that is opposssed to the president is voting to take his powers away. Its the check and balances. We couldnt vote Obama out, but we could vote for people who mitigate his power by not enactiing or writing legislature that he would want. its the whole point of not having a king, but a system of checks and balances.

Sorry but the checks and balance system went out the window when they 'tried' to repeal the ACA for like the 50th tome. Thats not sound or logical or a good use of taxpayer money.  It the type of shit that makes you wonder why we pay taxes at all.

Its what I want the senate to do. You may think its a bad idea, but i think Obamacare is a bad idea. So the checks and balances seem to be working fine, no one is getting what they want, and everyone is unhappy.



JWeinCom said:
sabvre42 said:

No offense, but you are pretty ignorant in state vs federal. The guy you quoted is completely right. There is NO FEDERAL LAW on drinking age, seat belts, or speed limit. They were heavy handedly placed as requirements to receive federal road funding (so no the interstate commerce clause didn't apply).

 

Also, the national guard belongs to the governor and not the federal government. If a governor refused to commit his troops, there is no legal ramification. Again, they simply lose federal funding.

 

Following that precedent the ACA would be constitutional if they tied the requirement up to funding and let the states suffer if they didn't fall in line.

No offense, but don't come into a conversation calling someone ignorant, especially if you have no grasp on what's being discussed.

What we were discussing, before random people started popping in to talk about other things, was whether or not forcing people to do something is inherently unconstitutional.  The US constitution still applies at a state level, in accordance with article VI section 2 of the constitution.  So, whether or not the law is enacted by the state or federal government is totally irrelevant in the context of this conversation.  These examples (which were taken from the top of my head) show situations where the government compels people to do certain things, and the constitutionality of these laws have not been successfully challenged.  Hence, forcing people to do things can be constitutional.  I'm sure we could think of hundreds of situations where forcing people to do certain things is constitutional.  Taxes are especially constitutional as per article 1 section 8 of the constitution.

And nobody discussed the national guard at all, so I don't know why you're talking about it at all.

So really, don't show up and call me ignorant when you have a complete lack of context as to what the original conversation was about.  It's kind of rude.

The federal government forcing people to do these things is unconstitoinal. Thats why the feds force states to enact the laws on their behalf through the use of freeway funding. Its a loophole that has been abused far too long. Each state has its own constitution that will allow or not allow certain things. But the constitiion is pretty clear, if it isnt written in the constitioon the power falls to the state. Healthcare should not be on a federal level but a state level. Its also why the supreme court decided that it was a tax.  What he is saying is in the context of your argument. You just dont seem to know how some laws work and how the federal government has used its heavy hand to force state and local governments to do what the fed is not allowed to. It all comes down to states rights vs federal.



thranx said:
JWeinCom said:

No offense, but don't come into a conversation calling someone ignorant, especially if you have no grasp on what's being discussed.

What we were discussing, before random people started popping in to talk about other things, was whether or not forcing people to do something is inherently unconstitutional.  The US constitution still applies at a state level, in accordance with article VI section 2 of the constitution.  So, whether or not the law is enacted by the state or federal government is totally irrelevant in the context of this conversation.  These examples (which were taken from the top of my head) show situations where the government compels people to do certain things, and the constitutionality of these laws have not been successfully challenged.  Hence, forcing people to do things can be constitutional.  I'm sure we could think of hundreds of situations where forcing people to do certain things is constitutional.  Taxes are especially constitutional as per article 1 section 8 of the constitution.

And nobody discussed the national guard at all, so I don't know why you're talking about it at all.

So really, don't show up and call me ignorant when you have a complete lack of context as to what the original conversation was about.  It's kind of rude.

The federal government forcing people to do these things is unconstitoinal. Thats why the feds force states to enact the laws on their behalf through the use of freeway funding. Its a loophole that has been abused far too long. Each state has its own constitution that will allow or not allow certain things. But the constitiion is pretty clear, if it isnt written in the constitioon the power falls to the state. Healthcare should not be on a federal level but a state level. Its also why the supreme court decided that it was a tax.  What he is saying is in the context of your argument. You just dont seem to know how some laws work and how the federal government has used its heavy hand to force state and local governments to do what the fed is not allowed to. It all comes down to states rights vs federal.

What he is stating is not in the context of this conversation, because this conversation is not about which rights are delegated to the states or the federal government.  The conversation was about WHETHER IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL FOR THE GOVERNMENT AT ANY LEVEL TO FORCE PEOPLE TO DO CERTAIN THINGS. If the state can enforce a speed limit, then enforcing a speed limit is constitutional.  

Being a state law doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be constitutional.  So, when I said it is constitutional to force people to drive a certain speed limit, that is absolutely correct.  If you think it's not constitutional, then please sue the state for acting unconstitutionally next time you get a speeding ticket, and see how that goes..  I never ever ever stated that the federal government has the power to enforce speed limits.  Yet people are talking down to me as though I did. I was just giving examples of the government constitutionally forcing people to do things, with examples from different levels of government.  For fuck's sake people, learn to read.