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Soundwave said:
Darwinianevolution said:
Soundwave said:

I think asking NX to stop the bleeding from the tablet market is asking for too much.

Apple/Google have poisoned the well by getting people accustomed to free casual games, now Nintendo can't make money off those with their old business model.

And what's worse is tablets are getting cheaper and cheaper, now you can get a decent tablet with a nice HD display for $100 ... sometimes as low as $79 .... how do you realistically compete against that? In three years we're going to have what? $50 tablets? 

Kids and casuals are being inundated by a product that's basically being given away for free. It's not fair but what can you do. 

NX's main priority is likely to stay profitable. There's not a lot you can do about erosion from smart devices, it's like being hit with an earthquake followed by a tsunami ... you don't even have a chance.

If they can hold at 50 million portable NXs and 15-20 million console NXs .... that should be enough to turn a nice profit.

If Nintendo can preserve the huge attach rates of their first party, they won't have problems even with an userbase of 50m. Imagine how well MK8 would have sold if it its userbase had the size of the 3DS one. Now imagine that for all of their games.


Exactly that's why they *must* destroy the segregated software model they have now. They're likely only make 1/2 or 3/4 of the money they should on these Wii U games by wasting them on the tiny Wii U userbase. They need to get those big games to their main audience which is stuck on the 3DS side. The way they operate now is grossly inefficient, imagine a movie studio releasing their biggest budget movies in the smallest/most limited markets nationwide. That would be crazy. 

The only question I could see in a hybrid market is the pricing. Usually home console games go from 49-60€, while handheld titles go from 39-45€. I suppose Nintendo won't try to make their handheld crowd suddenly pay 20€ more per game, so they either sell all their titles at handheld price, or they price every game differently (which would be great for new IPs or smaller titles, specially if they put them around 30€).



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.

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haxxiy said:
sc94597 said:
 

10-15% might just be enough to remove bottlenecks. Actually 10-15% extra CPU power is pretty significant in the grand scheme of things. 

I think you are greatly understimating what GPU they can put in for $300, and Nintendo's priorities. While Nintendo has never lit the hardware charts, they've always had consoles that matched the predecessor (Wii matched XBOX, Wii U matches PS3.) For less than a $100 /per console cost of production + AMD profit (in bulk) Nintendo could get Pitcairn, Tobago or Bonaire XTX (surpasses XBOX ONE and matches PS4.) The only thing that will limit this is power consumption, but I am sure they will work out the specifics. That leaves $150-200 for the rest of the components.

The only way I would see Nintendo going for an Oland XT is if they are trying to reduce the price of their console to the $200-250 range. 


You talk about "removing bottlenecks" and "working out the specifics" and "grand scheme of things" without actually pointing out what those mean. I can surely overclock any CPU 10-15% and I doubt it would any significant, even if I coded software specially for it. The X1 CPU is theoretically clocked 10% higher than the PS4's and it doesn't seem like a big deal.The Carrizo benckmarchs point to a nice increase, but it does not break any "bottlenecks".

I agree, though, if Nintendo plays their card well, they could get a bigger piece of silicon (since 28nm is more mature now) and underclock / undervolt it to get to X1 or even better levels of performance, but keeping a smaller case / cooling system. The thing is, Nintendo hasn't played her hand well when it comes to console hardware since the GameCube. And that's being generous for not taking into account the controller and media storage...

If only Nintendo could ditch AMD and get a Maxwell GPU, now we're talking about a mix of good harware and low power consumption / heat. A Geforce GTX 965M consumes less than two thirds of the graphics inside the PS4 and brings an almost even performance. Not to mention it shouldn't be very expensive, since it's basically a GM204 chip with half its units disabled. Yields would be very high...

1. "Removing bottlenecks" - bottlenecks are usually the type of things that if you don't have enough power they limit your system, but the difference to "just enough" could be quite marginal cost vs. a large benefit you gain. The performance gains, when bottlenecks are in the system are not linear/scale evenly by percentage. I am sure you know all of this.

An example in PC gaming:

Notice the marginal differences in computing frequency and/or threads lead to a significant stability in frame-time for the Witcher 3 and then after that it is flat, and before that it slopes somewhat linearly. If you have a 1.3 GHZ 4 threaded CPU you will see gains by increasing that to 1.5 GHZ (+15%), but after that you see no gains. That is what I meant by, 10-15% could be enough to resolve cpu bottlenecks in certain applications.

2. Most advances in CPU IPC from generation to generation (for the same clock-speed) today are quite miniscule. Look at Haswell Refresh -> Skylake. That is what I meant by 10-15% as quite significant.

3. Possibly since they are going to finally ditch the old GameCube architecture they will make wiser decisions this time around. They could increase performance even if they go with AMD. There are low-profile GPU chips that will let them match XBO/PS4 performance for a pricepoint of $300, without leaving their power consumption requirements, and I am sure there will be more options for when they manufacture such a console (probably won't come until the end of 2016/early 2017.)



Like I've said before, Nintendo fans I think have it completely backwards in terms of where the power of the hardware split should be.

The PORTABLE should be the focus of the hardware design and it should be the focus of getting the most possible power in there.

THAT will get third parties to sit up and take notice, not a 3-years-too-late-PS4-wannabe console with no userbase. Third parties saw that console already, it's called the Wii U, and this time Nintendo is not coming off a 100 million userbase either. Third parties are not going to care about a Nintendo console if that's the focus of the NX. 

If Nintendo fans were upset with the third party support the Wii U got early on, don't expect much better for the NX if the console is the focus.

The handheld being a new type of powerful device though (which I do think is legitimately possible given the massive advances in mobile tech happening today) ... that's a game changer for Nintendo, because Nintendo portables actually sell and third parties I think wouldn't mind at all having ports on say the 3DS if they 3DS wasn't three freaking generations behind the engines third parties work on.

I'm sure Capcom would like Resident Evil 7/RE2 Remake to be on a Nintendo portable if they system could run it. Ditto for Square-Enix, probably would want Kingdom Hearts III, Final Fantasy VII Remake, etc. to join Dragon Quest XI. 

That's why I really think Nintendo should aim for a hardware spec that allows for PS4/XB1 ports on the handheld with some reduced effects at a lower resolution (960x540 res is 1/4 of 1080P).

The Tegra X1 by the way, Nvidia's top of the line mobile processor, just got announced a few days ago as being the GPU that's going to be in Google's new Android tablet. Nvidia has the Tegra X1, PowerVR is giving Apple the mega-powerful A9X processor ... AMD should be able to give Nintendo something comparable/better next year at 14nm.



I have no way of knowing until I see it. If it's something really fun looking or unique (in a good way) I'll definitely be getting it regardless of power.



If NX is a portable, it will have around 200-300 gflops, wich is one third to one half of wii u's power and will probably have a foldable screen and release for $199. If it's a home console, it will be much more powerfull than ps4, possibly between 4 and 5.4 tflops and release for $299 unless it has some revolutionary technology like the wii. In the later case, it can be a little/moderately more powerfull than ps4. But basically there's 0,0001% chances wii u's successor will be LESS powerfull than ps4. It would be counterproductive manufacturing wise, not to mention nintendo will make a machine that's at least ready for a standard of 1080p 60fps.

People saying wii u's sucessor will be weaker than ps4 and even x1 are outright trolling or delusional.

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Soundwave said:

Is there really even a point in Nintendo trying to compete with Sony/MS? If there was just one of them, maybe, but two of them makes it virtually impossible and Nintendo really hasn't been able to compete for that market for a long time.

Even with the Wii, the increase came from the pre-smartphone casual gaming boom, not from taking away the types of people who like to play shooters, sports, driving, action adventure games, etc. from the PS/XBox audience, because the PS3/360 sold 170+ million combined, which is the same as the PS2-XBox more or less. So there was no decline to Sony or MS' audience even despite the Wii.

Nintendo is too associated with family gaming to compete with Sony/MS. And they can't disassociate from that because it's their main pillar ... Disney-style syrupy sweet mascot character games, which will always get Nintendo labelled as the "kids console" by comparison to Sony/MS who market/target almost exclusively teenagers and college-aged men. 

And on top of that it'll be 3-4 years late meaning it has really no chance of being anything but a (distant) third place console for the duration of the remaining generation before its thunder is stolen by the XB2/PS5. Third parties will treat it in the same way as the Wii U, where they make the PS4/XB1 multiplats a priority because of the sheer install base/proven buyer base, and some like Rockstar (GTA VI) probably won't even bother with the NX. 

I mean if they're going to really go balls to the wall with the Apple philosophy of having many different levels of hardware, then sure OK, maybe one of them can be a 1.2-2 TFLOP megaconsole with a HDD and all that then it doesn't matter so much if it doesn't do so great because it's just one of many hardware components. But if that isn't going to be the approach and the console is tasked with carrying half the water of the NX equation, that's going to be very, very difficult. 

hahahaha you're so delusional it's hilarious.

OK idiot, let's take a look at your numbers, ps3 + xbox360 = 170m consoles sold BUT at lest 30m must have broken due to red and yellow lights of death, so we get 140m BUT some people own both consoles, so we end up with around 120m individual buyers.

Now, the generation before had GC + ps2 + xbox at around 205 million consoles sold. considering people that owned two or three consoles that was probably around 185-190 individial buyers.

So, 190 - 120 = 70. Where are those gamers? ON THE WII. add 100m wiis to the 120m ps360s and we get 220m, wich gets closer to 200m after considering people that own 2 or 3 consoles.

The obvious conslusions to anyone with half a brain:

1. The wii was bought and played by the same usual gamer audience of children, teenagers and young adults, with the difference being that older adults and old people also enjoyd the system... IN THE SAME HOUSE. families tend to live together and only buy one console for the house, so the wii was enjoyed by the parents, kids and grandparents, with only a small number of homes that never owned a video game system buying one for the first time with the wii.

2. You're incredibly delusional.



Soundwave said:

Is there really even a point in Nintendo trying to compete with Sony/MS? If there was just one of them, maybe, but two of them makes it virtually impossible and Nintendo really hasn't been able to compete for that market for a long time.

Even with the Wii, the increase came from the pre-smartphone casual gaming boom, not from taking away the types of people who like to play shooters, sports, driving, action adventure games, etc. from the PS/XBox audience, because the PS3/360 sold 170+ million combined, which is the same as the PS2-XBox more or less. So there was no decline to Sony or MS' audience even despite the Wii.

Nintendo is too associated with family gaming to compete with Sony/MS. And they can't disassociate from that because it's their main pillar ... Disney-style syrupy sweet mascot character games, which will always get Nintendo labelled as the "kids console" by comparison to Sony/MS who market/target almost exclusively teenagers and college-aged men. 

And on top of that it'll be 3-4 years late meaning it has really no chance of being anything but a (distant) third place console for the duration of the remaining generation before its thunder is stolen by the XB2/PS5. Third parties will treat it in the same way as the Wii U, where they make the PS4/XB1 multiplats a priority because of the sheer install base/proven buyer base, and some like Rockstar (GTA VI) probably won't even bother with the NX. 

I mean if they're going to really go balls to the wall with the Apple philosophy of having many different levels of hardware, then sure OK, maybe one of them can be a 1.2-2 TFLOP megaconsole with a HDD and all that then it doesn't matter so much if it doesn't do so great because it's just one of many hardware components. But if that isn't going to be the approach and the console is tasked with carrying half the water of the NX equation, that's going to be very, very difficult. 

Continuing.

"And on top of that it'll be 3-4 years late meaning it has really no chance of being anything but a (distant) third place console for the duration of the remaining generation before its thunder is stolen by the XB2/PS5"

hahaha, whatever wii u successor is, it will be either one year EARLY or with the timing as usual AS THE FIRST 9TH GEN CONSOLE. And it will most likely be much more powerfull than the ps4. just keep your delusions to yourself.



bonzobanana said:
I've seen so many poor choices by Nintendo over recent years which has caused an erosion of their market share especially for home consoles. However I'm hopefully with AMD stating they are working on a home console for someone and the fact 2016 they are releasing some amazing chips which puts them in a much more competitive position against Intel that Nintendo has the chance to bring out an amazing console using this hardware.

Despite all the fanboy nonsense on this site the wii u clearly is weaker than 360 and PS3 in many important parts of its specification, we know that for a fact beyond question with regard the cpu and memory bandwidth and you only have to look at the games to confirm this. If you believe otherwise then make an argument around the exact specification not just stupid throwaway comments that are meaningless.

However I feel there is a chance Nintendo will produce an NX console of reasonable power. I think it will be easy for the NX to outperform xbone and ps4 for cpu performance. The rest I don't know its really based on how much Nintendo are willing to spend. Nintendo won't have to spend that much though to easily beat ps4 using the new AMD technology so I'm hopeful they will do it. The point is the technology allows them to go slightly past ps4 or past ps4 by a huge margin and I suspect Nintendo will go only slightly past at best but we shall see.

Of course there is the other direction where Nintendo use one of AMD's new arm based APU's and create something along the lines of an android box where they produce a lightweight home console. I see this as a disaster as the market is saturated and Nintendo won't be able to charge much for their software or hardware and for me this would lead to Nintendo leaving the hardware market shortly afterwards. Even the outgoing ps3 and 360 would be far better gaming options.

keep dreaming, troll. wii u is much more powerfull than ps360 and your whining will never change that.



Soundwave said:
Just for me personally, ignoring market/console wars pissing matches ... I would be OK with something double the Wii U for Nintendo games.

Wii U is estimated at 350 GFLOPS, so 700 GFLOPS with 3-4GB of RAM for games would be OK. Nintendo games already look pretty nice on the Wii U, going double I would assume would allow for a lot more 1080P games with cleaner image quality or the same image quality but graphics that are a nice step beyond Wii U. Given Nintendo's more cartoony graphical style, a little can go a long way.

Of course I'd gladly pay for like a 3 TFLOP Nintendo machine with 12GB of HBM2 RAM and all that jazz, but they likely will never make anything like that so why bother thinking about it.

"Wii U is estimated at 350 GFLOPS"

in your dreams.

"so 700 GFLOPS with 3-4GB of RAM for games would be OK"

that would be a slightly stronger wii u and NO, it would not be enough for 1080p on wii u games, let alone games with better graphics.



potato_hamster said:
Soundwave said:

There is no good solution to smartphone games and cheap tablets.

In any situation, Nintendo is going to be hurt by that, if there was some magical approach that could stop kids from playing smartphone games, Nintendo would've used it by now instead of conceding and making smartphone games themselves.

That's just the reality of the situation. The point now is what's the best route they can go to make sure NX as profitable as possible.

I don't even know how many traditional hardware generations there are left ... there will be a Playstation 5 for sure, but Playstation 6 ... eh. Not so sure about that. 

I agree. The fact of the matter is that Nintendo has painted themselves into a corner where they have more or less abandoned the sector of the video game market that consistently buys high volumes of video games and video game consoles. While it's nice to have your diehards, and cater to them, it simply isn't sustainable to have those diehards as your primary market, as there's simply much more limited growth opportunities. Hopefully they figure something out, because it would be a shame to see Nintendo to go the way of Sega.

As for the console market as a whole evaporating, we shall have to wait and see. I'm not so sure the world is ready to fully embrace PC gaming, and I'm not sure that a platform, no matter how web-based, and cloud-computing dependant it is, can really last on the market. People will want to keep seeing new and fresh products. I think consoles will be around for a while longer, but I think this could be the last disc-based console unless game sizes continue to increase to a point where selling a console with just a hard drive means only being able to play a handful of games at once. Either way there are interesting directions the industry could go in just around the corner.

"Nintendo has painted themselves into a corner where they have more or less abandoned the sector of the video game market that consistently buys high volumes of video games and video game consoles"

you're a cheap troll, try harder than that.