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Forums - Politics - 6th of August. Day of Hiroshima bombing.

Japan tried to get peace negotiations months before Hiroshima.

They just tried it via the Soviets because USSR and Japan had an agreement not to attack each other. And Japan wanted no unconditional surrender. So there's that.

The USSR declared war on Japan right around the time of the bombings and attacked Japans chinese puppet state Manchukuo.

At this point Japan would have surrendered in any way.

The US wanted to keep the soviets out of the surrender, they wanted to demonstrate their new power...

Ever wondered how it actually came to the Korean War?

Wikipedia:

Korea was ruled by Japan from 1910 until the closing days of World War II. In August 1945, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and—by agreement with the United States—occupied Korea north of the 38th parallel. U.S. forces subsequently occupied the south and Japan surrendered. By 1948, two separate governments had been set up. Both governments claimed to be the legitimate government of Korea, and neither side accepted the border as permanent. The conflict escalated into open warfare when North Korean forces—supported by the Soviet Union and China—invaded South Korea on 25 June 1950.


Basically another situation like in Germany. And something, the US did not want to happen in Japan as well.

That thing with a major invasion of the japanese mainland would have been a reason if Japan hadn't already tried to get peace negotiations.



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KLAMarine said:
Player2 said:
KLAMarine said:

The idea is it reduced war casualties by bringing the war to a close much quicker with the use of a frightening new weapon. No need for a long and drawn out land invasion. Scare the enemy into surrender rather than having to fight the millions who were being mobilized to defend the homeland.

Since you cut the interesting part of my reply, I'll ask, again:

What happened to the country that cared so much about civilian deaths? It didn't take long for USA to support military coup d'etats that overthrown democratic governments (with obvious consequences to civilians opposed to them), do napalm bombing, agent orange or support terrorists like the contras.

Your question is a complex one but I'll try to keep my answer brief. Feel free to ask more if you feel it necessary and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.

Player2 said:

What happened to the country that cared so much about civilian deaths?

I'm going to say a change of US leadership with different administrations exercising varying degrees of restraint in their actions happened. As an example, Lyndon B Johnson forbade bombing certain targets in North Vietnam. Richard Nixon, the man following Johnson was not so inhibited going so far as to even bomb parts of Cambodia. Congress funded the Vietnam War during the aforementioned two administrations but during President Ford's term, Congress wanted no more of the Vietnam War and refused to provide any further military spending on South Vietnam. President Ford himself had the honor to declare the Vietnam War over "as far as America [was] concerned" as North invaded the South.

Civilian casualties certainly matter but depending on who is in office, they will matter to varying degrees.

Different administrations had an impact on how far would USA go, I agree, but the very same Truman authorized the overthrown of the democratic government of Guatemala in 1952. The reason to do it? This way an american company would make more money. It ended being cancelled, not because of morals, but because it become public.

There's no need to argue abut the outcoming scenario as Eisenhower continued where Truman stopped: 36 years of civil war, over 200000 dead civilians, genocide against mayan population, all kinds human right violations.

So I don't buy the idea of Truman doing things to save lives in the middle of a war.

 

How about this: Since Truman and through the rest of the 20th century USA did what its government perceived as better for the USA regardless of how questionable such acts were, with a few exceptions. It explains lots of things.



KLAMarine said:
Saeko said:

I do understand why U.S. used these bomb in a certain way.... what i don't understant its why TWO ? one single one and a warning for more should have been enough for japan to surrender, juste for this, i  call  them monster !

How do you know this?

Sharu said:
Saeko said:

I do understand why U.S. used these bomb in a certain way.... what i don't understant its why TWO ? one single one and a warning for more should have been enough for japan to surrender, juste for this, i  call  them monster !

From Wiki:
'A uranium gun-type atomic bomb (Little Boy) was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, followed by a plutonium implosion-type bomb (Fat Man) on the city of Nagasaki on August 9.'

So USA was testing two different types of nuclear bombs. Thats why it was two bombings.

Your reasoning is terribly flawed. Have you considered the possibility that perhaps there were two bombings because the Japanese were still not willing to surrender following the first atom bomb?

Since one specific session of Superme War Council on August 9th that initiated the process that ended up with Japan's surrender eventually was convended few minutes before Nagasaki explosion, it doubt the latter was the direct reasoning behind the urgency of said session. Hiroshima bombing that happened full three days before apparently wasn't worthy of any immediate action as well. The culprit is not really hard to indentify, few hours before Nagasaki was shelled into oblivion, before sunrise Red Army has started an offensive operation in Manchuria, therefore ruining any hopes for anything but uncomitted surrender for Japan.

BTW I posted a link few posts above to recently declassified document on the situation a month later after bombings, it's pretty interesting. Author's emphasis is that radiophobia, a hysteria behind bombings and their effects, is an afterthought that to a great degree was stirred up by the media and used as an excuse for surrender.



Player2 said:

Different administrations had an impact on how far would USA go, I agree, but the very same Truman authorized the overthrown of the democratic government of Guatemala in 1952. The reason to do it? This way an american company would make more money. It ended being cancelled, not because of morals, but because it become public.

There's no need to argue abut the outcoming scenario as Eisenhower continued where Truman stopped: 36 years of civil war, over 200000 dead civilians, genocide against mayan population, all kinds human right violations.

So I don't buy the idea of Truman doing things to save lives in the middle of a war.

Considering how brutal and deadly the land war against Japanese soldiers had been prior to the atomic bombings I'd argue it seems believable. Japanese soldiers suffered worse casualties than Allied forces when battling on land and civilians didn't fare well either. An invasion of Japan would have likely been worse.

mai said:
KLAMarine said:
Sharu said:
Saeko said:

I do understand why U.S. used these bomb in a certain way.... what i don't understant its why TWO ? one single one and a warning for more should have been enough for japan to surrender, juste for this, i  call  them monster !

From Wiki:
'A uranium gun-type atomic bomb (Little Boy) was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, followed by a plutonium implosion-type bomb (Fat Man) on the city of Nagasaki on August 9.'

So USA was testing two different types of nuclear bombs. Thats why it was two bombings.

Your reasoning is terribly flawed. Have you considered the possibility that perhaps there were two bombings because the Japanese were still not willing to surrender following the first atom bomb?

Since one specific session of Superme War Council on August 9th that initiated the process that ended up with Japan's surrender eventually was convended few minutes before Nagasaki explosion, it doubt the latter was the direct reasoning behind the urgency of said session. Hiroshima bombing that happened full three days before apparently wasn't worthy of any immediate action as well. The culprit is not really hard to indentify, few hours before Nagasaki was shelled into oblivion, before sunrise Red Army has started an offensive operation in Manchuria, therefore ruining any hopes for anything but uncomitted surrender for Japan.

BTW I posted a link few posts above to recently declassified document on the situation a month later after bombings, it's pretty interesting. Author's emphasis is that radiophobia, a hysteria behind bombings and their effects, is an afterthought that to a great degree was stirred up by the media and used as an excuse for surrender.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.



KLAMarine said:
mai said:

Since one specific session of Superme War Council on August 9th that initiated the process that ended up with Japan's surrender eventually was convended few minutes before Nagasaki explosion, it doubt the latter was the direct reasoning behind the urgency of said session. Hiroshima bombing that happened full three days before apparently wasn't worthy of any immediate action as well. The culprit is not really hard to indentify, few hours before Nagasaki was shelled into oblivion, before sunrise Red Army has started an offensive operation in Manchuria, therefore ruining any hopes for anything but uncomitted surrender for Japan.

BTW I posted a link few posts above to recently declassified document on the situation a month later after bombings, it's pretty interesting. Author's emphasis is that radiophobia, a hysteria behind bombings and their effects, is an afterthought that to a great degree was stirred up by the media and used as an excuse for surrender.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

What he's trying to say is described in this excellent article, very good read.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/



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SvennoJ said:
KLAMarine said:
mai said:

Since one specific session of Superme War Council on August 9th that initiated the process that ended up with Japan's surrender eventually was convended few minutes before Nagasaki explosion, it doubt the latter was the direct reasoning behind the urgency of said session. Hiroshima bombing that happened full three days before apparently wasn't worthy of any immediate action as well. The culprit is not really hard to indentify, few hours before Nagasaki was shelled into oblivion, before sunrise Red Army has started an offensive operation in Manchuria, therefore ruining any hopes for anything but uncomitted surrender for Japan.

BTW I posted a link few posts above to recently declassified document on the situation a month later after bombings, it's pretty interesting. Author's emphasis is that radiophobia, a hysteria behind bombings and their effects, is an afterthought that to a great degree was stirred up by the media and used as an excuse for surrender.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

What he's trying to say is described in this excellent article, very good read.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/

Excellent article and one I agree with for the most part. Tell me, what in your opinion is the most important point one should come away with reading the article?



KLAMarine said:
SvennoJ said:

What he's trying to say is described in this excellent article, very good read.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/

Excellent article and one I agree with for the most part. Tell me, what in your opinion is the most important point one should come away with reading the article?

What struck me most is that the bomb wasn't regarded as a critical event when it dropped. It was just another way to level an (unimportant) city, like the 60+ before that were (fire) bombed to rubble. (Incidentally Grave of the fire flies is based on these raids)

The bomb - horrific as it was - was not as special as Americans have always imagined. In early March, several hundred B-29 Super Fortress bombers dropped incendiary bombs on downtown Tokyo. Some argue that more died in the resulting firestorm than at Hiroshima.

In fact, more than 60 of Japan’s cities had been substantially destroyed by the time of the Hiroshima attack. In the three weeks before Hiroshima 25 cities were heavily bombed.

To us, then, Hiroshima was unique, and the move to atomic weaponry was a great leap, military and moral. But Hasegawa argues the change was incremental. “Once we had accepted strategic bombing as an acceptable weapon of war, the atomic bomb was a very small step,” he says. To Japan’s leaders, Hiroshima was yet another population center leveled, albeit in a novel way. If they didn’t surrender after Tokyo, they weren’t going to after Hiroshima.


Besides that I doubt the Japanese fully realized the extent of the damage in the days before the surrender. Communication must have been sketchy, eye witness reports unreliable and many people didn't die straight away while help didn't arrive until much later. If you have the stomach for it, watch Barefoot Gen, an autobiographical story from a survivor. A boy survives the blast and finds himself wandering in the land of the walking dead, literally.

The view that the bomb wasn't particularly shocking at the time is repeated in other texts which I quoted before
The fact is that as far as the Japanese militarists were concerned, the atomic bomb was just another weapon. The two atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were icing on the cake, and did not do as much damage as the firebombings of Japanese cities. The B-29 firebombing campaign had brought the destruction of 3,100,000 homes, leaving 15 million people homeless, and killing about a million of them. It was the ruthless firebombing, and Hirohito's realization that if necessary the Allies would completely destroy Japan and kill every Japanese to achieve "unconditional surrender" that persuaded him to the decision to end the war. The atomic bomb is indeed a fearsome weapon, but it was not the cause of Japan's surrender, even though the myth persists even to this day.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html



SvennoJ said:
KLAMarine said:

Excellent article and one I agree with for the most part. Tell me, what in your opinion is the most important point one should come away with reading the article?

What struck me most is that the bomb wasn't regarded as a critical event when it dropped. It was just another way to level an (unimportant) city, like the 60+ before that were (fire) bombed to rubble. (Incidentally Grave of the fire flies is based on these raids)

The bomb - horrific as it was - was not as special as Americans have always imagined. In early March, several hundred B-29 Super Fortress bombers dropped incendiary bombs on downtown Tokyo. Some argue that more died in the resulting firestorm than at Hiroshima.

In fact, more than 60 of Japan’s cities had been substantially destroyed by the time of the Hiroshima attack. In the three weeks before Hiroshima 25 cities were heavily bombed.

To us, then, Hiroshima was unique, and the move to atomic weaponry was a great leap, military and moral. But Hasegawa argues the change was incremental. “Once we had accepted strategic bombing as an acceptable weapon of war, the atomic bomb was a very small step,” he says. To Japan’s leaders, Hiroshima was yet another population center leveled, albeit in a novel way. If they didn’t surrender after Tokyo, they weren’t going to after Hiroshima.


Besides that I doubt the Japanese fully realized the extent of the damage in the days before the surrender. Communication must have been sketchy, eye witness reports unreliable and many people didn't die straight away while help didn't arrive until much later. If you have the stomach for it, watch Barefoot Gen, an autobiographical story from a survivor. A boy survives the blast and finds himself wandering in the land of the walking dead, literally.

The view that the bomb wasn't particularly shocking at the time is repeated in other texts which I quoted before
The fact is that as far as the Japanese militarists were concerned, the atomic bomb was just another weapon. The two atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were icing on the cake, and did not do as much damage as the firebombings of Japanese cities. The B-29 firebombing campaign had brought the destruction of 3,100,000 homes, leaving 15 million people homeless, and killing about a million of them. It was the ruthless firebombing, and Hirohito's realization that if necessary the Allies would completely destroy Japan and kill every Japanese to achieve "unconditional surrender" that persuaded him to the decision to end the war. The atomic bomb is indeed a fearsome weapon, but it was not the cause of Japan's surrender, even though the myth persists even to this day.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

Interesting that the firebombing was deadlier and yet it's the atomic bombings that get more attention.



KLAMarine said:

Interesting that the firebombing was deadlier and yet it's the atomic bombings that get more attention.


Because we now know that nuclear bombing will have consequences for the next thousands of years.



Two things:
Many people died weeks and months later, even years later because of radiation sickness, long term effects...

Those where actually just two bombs, no massive bombing with hundreds of bombers and 200-1000 and more tons of bombs.

That is what basically was done in Germany as well as Japan. Really massive air raids, normally multiple air raids. And keep in mind that Japan and Germany had been bombing cities as well. So those massive air raids where probably much more normal.