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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Are Pc-Gamers graphics complainments against consoles justified?

greenmedic88 on 25 July 2015

The gap is not as big as the PC proponents would like to believe, or would have anyone who disagrees with their point of view believe.

If a consumer wants a higher end experience (3x1920x1080 displays, 4K, etc.) it's available with PC builds or boutique custom systems. It goes without saying that said experience costs considerably more, but it's what the consumer is paying for if that's what they want.

Ultimately, it still boils down to platform preference. The important thing here is that consumers have as many choices available as possible to suit those preferences.



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greenmedic88 on 25 July 2015

It would be less than preferable to a significant percentage of the gaming market if the only options were to go with mobile games (which is a large segment of the market, just not one that suits everyone), spend more than $350-400, or build a sub-par budget gaming PC with less than optimal components to meet budget, or pay a PC manufacturer a premium for a prebuilt PC.



Untamoi on 25 July 2015
cpg716 said:
BraLoD said:
Of course not.
PC hardly get any really big exclusive games, it doesn't have the same power to actually attract content like that as someone making their own platform.
PC top quality parts are really expensive and totally out of reach to most people, making games to fit console top quality is already a struggle, very expensive and risk, there would be no actual boost without them, actually we would have way less solutions on how to code games, as they would really too much in specs that can handle raw coding rather than actual well managed and thoughtful solutions.
Without consoles we would actually have a way, way smaller gaming community and that would actually mean less money to developers to make games so lesser games would come, also, less creativity would happen.

Both console and PC gaming serve their purpose and are needed.
Actually, consoles are the last choice to get rid of if we would need to get rid of one.

A few things..   You can build/buy a PC that does 1080p gaming for $400-500.. and do 1440p gaming at $650..   not really expensive..   you can do SOLID 1080p/60fps gaming EVERY SINGLE DAY on  PC that cost the same as X1/PS4..    people have this OLD misconception that it cost $1000s to do this..

Steam as of March has 125 million ACTIVE users..  and has been adding about 25-30 million users every 6 months.. in the past year..  Likely will be at 175 million ACTIVE users by end of 2015..   again a growth rate FAR large then console.  TOTAL  PS4/X1 users will be at MOST 50 million by end of 2015..  And STEAM is NOT every single gamer.. as there are SEVERAL ways to purhcase games on a PC.     GoG/Origin/Steam/etc.. Estimates for total PC gamers is anywhere from 300-700 million.    Which at the top end.. would be larger then 6th, 7th, and 8th generation console gaming COMBINED.. 

If consoles didn't exist.. PC gaming would likely just be larger..   we are starting to get even more smaller and cheaper "console" like PC gaming units..  This will even more continue to help build PC gaming.. which again.. already has higher revenues then console ...  because A) way more games.. and B) way more users..


Now, those figures are usually completely off. Sure, you can build gaming PC with $400-500 (with lower graphics on most demanding games) but you need monitor (unless you play on TV), keyboard, mouse, OS etc if buy PC first time. You can't just assume, that you have those already because most people don't have any of those.  You have to assume when talking about price that person has absolutely no peripherals already.



MoHasanie on 25 July 2015

Well they have the right to be angry about downgraded graphics but since games sell more on consoles, they shouldn't complain that much.



    

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mountaindewslave on 25 July 2015
cpg716 said:
JNK said:

So scince last year on youtube and on many other gaming related forums people argue about "downgrades" and "bad graphics" and in their opinion, they suffer from the "bad consoles".

 

I tried to think about this blame from a neutral/developers viewpoint and i came to the conclusion, it isnt justified. Here are my arguments:

 

1. Pc gaming is relativly unrelevant. More People do play multiplattsform games on consoles. Developer should focus on their biggest market

Um.. PC Gaming revenue has overtaken console..  it did so in 2014.. and its increasing..     Console gaming revenue has been shrinking (although it did see a postive in June)..   so..  this makes your first point and most other points..   well.. incorrect..

this, PC gaming as a whole is actually bigger than console at the moment. a lot of that is because of MMO's and the obvious large growth of online communities like Steam

the reality is that consoles are wayyyy behind PC's. a PC equivalent to the cost of a console with accessories and some games is capable of playing games like wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better

with being able to plug in a controller to a computer I just don't see the high advantage of a console. mainly only for multiplayer in person with friends



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mountaindewslave on 25 July 2015
arcaneguyver said:
PC gamers pay a premium for their system (often 2-3x as much as consoles), so them complaining about marginally superior multiplats is understandable to a point. It's not console gamers' fault PC gamers are buying power beyond what is necessary, though. Kind of like buying a high power sports car and then complaining about the low speed limits.


ehhhh with the price of controllers and accessories for console literally you can pay maybe less than 2x the $$$ amount for a PC that is capable of playing games at like double the quality or at least a much higher margin

also bear in mind that consoles are dated extremely fast. buy the right PC tower and just trade out the Ram and graphics card, and that 1000$ investment can last for years and years. the console can't be updated



mountaindewslave on 25 July 2015
JNK said:
cpg716 said:

A few things..   You can build/buy a PC that does 1080p gaming for $400-500.. and do 2k gaming at $650..   not really expensive..   you can do SOLID 1080p/60fps gaming EVERY SINGLE DAY on  PC that cost the same as X1/PS4..    people have this OLD misconception that it cost $1000s to do this..

Steam as of March has 125 million ACTIVE users..  and has been adding about 25-30 million users every 6 months.. in the past year..  Likely will be at 175 million ACTIVE users by end of 2015..   again a growth rate FAR large then console.  TOTAL  PS4/X1 users will be at MOST 50 million by end of 2015..  And STEAM is NOT every single gamer.. as there are SEVERAL ways to purhcase games on a PC.     GoG/Origin/Steam/etc.. Estimates for total PC gamers is anywhere from 300-700 million.    Which at the top end.. would be larger then 6th, 7th, and 8th generation console gaming COMBINED.. 

If consoles didn't exist.. PC gaming would likely just be larger..   we are starting to get even more smaller and cheaper "console" like PC gaming units..  This will even more continue to help build PC gaming.. which again.. already has higher revenues then console ...  because A) way more games.. and B) way more users..

 

Hey i dont know about US prices but its 100% incorrect for Europe. A solid Gaming PC with same power as console is easily 500€+ without OS (750ti, core i3, 8Gb Ram).

A 1080p60fps PC (core i5, gtx 960) is ~650€.

Included everything you need for the pc (controls, cables, case, power supply, motherboard, harddrive). And builing it on your own.

If you buy a dell oc, you will easily pay 1300€ for 750ti and core i3 (check their website).

If you want to have similar form factor as a console you can add 100-150€ to this prices (living room use).

So its definitive not cheaper or as cheap. I got my ps4 on primeday for 259,00€. In Switzerland you could bought the ps4 some days ago for 230€. There are sup 300€ offers every week.

 

Steams user count is also growing because of people who make multiaccounts for whatever reasons. Almost every pc user i do know have more then 1 steam account. Steam is a popular gaming plattform scince ~2010 (or even earilier). So your 25mio/6month cant be correct.

 

The console (special ps1/ps2) brought video games to the "normal" people. Before the playstations era videogames where for kids and nerds only. Without consoles, alot less people would game and videogames would still be "niche". Consoles are also the springboard for many people to get into pc gaming (they are owning console + pc or switching to pc for several reasons)


ehhhh a lot of the popular games that wouldn't NEED multi counts (something like a GTA) are selling better than ever. Steam is definitely growing as is online PC gaming



Conina on 25 July 2015
JNK said:
cpg716 said:

Steam as of March has 125 million ACTIVE users..  and has been adding about 25-30 million users every 6 months.. in the past year..  Likely will be at 175 million ACTIVE users by end of 2015..   again a growth rate FAR large then console.  TOTAL  PS4/X1 users will be at MOST 50 million by end of 2015..  And STEAM is NOT every single gamer.. as there are SEVERAL ways to purhcase games on a PC.     GoG/Origin/Steam/etc.. Estimates for total PC gamers is anywhere from 300-700 million.    Which at the top end.. would be larger then 6th, 7th, and 8th generation console gaming COMBINED.. 

Steams user count is also growing because of people who make multiaccounts for whatever reasons. Almost every pc user i do know have more then 1 steam account.

Let me first say: I don't think that consoles are holding back PC games and I don't think they have in the past. AAA games have to reach a wide audience to make enough money to cover the production costs and make a nice profit on top... they can't do that by limiting their audience to 10% of the PC gamers with fast rigs. So with or without consoles... there are always compromises in graphics/performance to reach more buyers. I'm quite happy with the current situation: a coexistence of 7th gen consoles, 8th gen consoles, entry-level PCs, decent gaming PCs and high-end PCs.

If some PC-versions of multiplatform games don't show the performance they should theoretically have or are buggy as hell... don't blame the consoles but blame the developers/publishers and their QA instead who think they can release unfinished games!

Now for the downplaying of the number of Steam accounts: do you really think that a considerable amount of PC gamers has several Steam accounts and keeps them all active? The Steam numbers don't include accounts which have been used for a while, so even if you have some Steam games which aren't bound to your main account but to secondary accounts... if you don't play them regulary, they don't get counted. Most people are way too lazy to switch between several Steam accounts... they want all their games in one account (game collection not split up, no hassle with friend lists while on a secondary account...). They don't buy used games already connected to another Steam accounts, they want unused keys to connect these games with their own account. Just look up, how many Steam accounts are traded on eBay... it's an insignificant minority.

JNK said:

 Steam is a popular gaming plattform scince ~2010 (or even earilier). So your 25mio/6month cant be correct.

What you don't (want to?) get: it haven't been always 25mio/6month, the growth rate of Steam accounts is "gaining steam"!

  • 01/2012= 40 million active Steam accounts
  • 09/2012= 50 million active Steam accounts (~1.25 million per month since 01/2012)
  • 10/2013 = 65 million active Steam accounts (~1.15 million per month since 09/2012)
  • 01/2014 = 75 million active Steam accounts (~3.33 million per month since 10/2013)
  • 09/2014 = 100 million active Steam accounts (~3.13 million per month since 01/2014)
  • 02/2015 = 125 million active Steam accounts (~5 million per month since 09/2014)

If the growth in the last 5 month has stayed at 5 million per month on average, the announcement of 150 million active Steam accounts could follow soon, perhaps at GamesCom.



Bofferbrauer on 25 July 2015
JNK said:

Games doe sell alot more on consoles, even if not combined. Witcher 3 sold 2,5mio on Ps4 but 1,3mio on pc.

Right now, this is true. Like I said however, games on PC keep on selling while console game sales are extremly frontloaded. Thus over time, PC reverses this trend

Star Citizen was crowd funded. Thatsy why it has this budget. I already said something about it. A star citizen player/backer paid 300+$ in average as far as im informed. On Normal Multiplats (Witcher 3, GTA V, Batman, COD...) they are paying 10-30$ 

Ever asked yourself why they get that much per person? There are 3 reasons to it: First, it is a genre where publishers arbitrairly decided it would not sell, so fans of the genre where waiting for some ime for such a game. Second, the game shows what a PC is capable of, something you can't really get from multiplats. And third, because it is a PC exclusive, meaning they don't need to take console hardware limitations into consideration. Especially points 2&3 are things PC gamers where yearning for years now.

At the moment star citizen is very very buggy. Graphics is good but not better as a game like order 1886. Star citizen looks incredible good for the game it is though.

The game is not finished yet, not even marketed as such in any way. It's only natural it's still buggy as it is only in beta. The Order 1886 wasn't a beta, it was released and marketed as a finished game.

Witcher 3 was already avaibale for 8€ last week (keystore). It was 25€ on the cheapest keystores at launch. Even CDProjektRed worried about those low prieces. Dont compare them to 60€ retail or 70€ digital on console. Even used witcher 3 is still 40-45€. Take off 10€ for licensing, transport, package and disc, but still way more expensive.

Witcher 3 got released a few weeks ago. Prices drop faster on PC, but eventually those on consoles do catch up. Thus this game is a rather bad example right now. The only games I buy at release are Nintendo games since they don't drop, ever. For the rest I wait a couple of years, at which point the prices are basically the same during sales between PC and consoles. Just need a bit of patience, that's all.

I never said it should get worse. I think it fair and ok how is it handeld at the moment (arkham knight was obviusly not ok). But games like Witcher 3, GTA V and co are good enough on pc. But many PC gamers do still complain.

Neither did I, with downgrading I meant to bring them down to console standard, not even worse than that.

Assassins Creed Unity was buggy on all plattforms. Games like Witcher 3 run 20 fps on console, the pc version is even better (on similar hardware). Still, many pc gamers do complain about "bad graphics".

I know Assassin's Creed was buggy on all platforms, but the problems where even much worse on PCs than on consoles. The reason why many PC gamers complain about bad graphics is that PCs are capable of better things if anyone only really tries to tap it's potential. Hence why I mentioned Star Citizen so often, it's the first game in a long while to actually do so.

No. Your comparison is completly off. The differences between 6th or 7th gen and 8th gen is alot bigger as the differences between 8th gen and high end gaming pcs.

The Ps4 is about 100x as strong as the ps2 and 10x as strong as the ps3.

The ps4 do have 1850 Gflops, ps3 ~150 Gflops and ps2 ~12 Gflops.

 PS2 was an exaggeration to drive my point home. Also, you're comparing only Graphics chips, but the PS3' Cell did much of these calculations too. Both a PC and a console are more than just the sum of their parts, but even in that case, you'd have to add the CPUs, which would narrow the gap quite a bit between 7th and 8th gen, especially for the Playstation. Gigaflops are a bad comparision anyway, since then AMD would wipe the floor both with NVidia (especially in double precision) and even Intel (since most of it comes from the integrated graphics Chip, where AMD is stronger than Intel), but that just couldn't be further from the truth.

The PS4's processor is it's weak point. Relatively low IPC, very low clock; games which can't get multithreaded easely will loose power here. Even then, the GPU has to help them out part of the time. Thus also limiting the power left for graphical scenes. It's basically a reversal of the previous console, where the CPU had to help out the GPU.

Even high end graphics card like the Nvidia Titan X does "only" have 6000 Gflops and are "only" 3x as strong as the ps4 graphics power.

+ The titan X is for sure not the "standart". The Average GPU used in Gaming pcs (780, 970, 980) do have between 3k and 4k Gflops and are only 2x as strong as the Ps4.

First, it's standard (I read standart so often it really drives me up a wall). Second, I wasn't claiming anything like it. But when there's talk about PC graphics, we're talking about Ultra settings. Of course these are not for everyone, but Ultra settings are meant to show off what current high-end hardware can do. In practice however, this means taking console graphics and add some AA worth it's name (no FXAA) over it. High resolution textures, more detailed models, maybe advanced tesselation? Dream on, Ultra settings have become a joke.

Bolded the "wrong"part, my answers are the unbolded ones.



czecherychestnut on 25 July 2015

If consoles didn't exist many PC gamers would just complain about the legion of HP Pavilion and Dell Inspiron users rocking 4 yr old integrated graphics and dual core Celeron's holding back PC gaming.

Sure, you can build PC's that would smoke the average console these days, but the average PC is far weaker than current consoles. Just look at the latest Steam hardware survey (which is skewed towards higher end PC's anyway due to its gaming nature). Most common GPU? Intel HD 4000 series. Most common CPU? Dual core between 2.3 and 2.9 GHz.

Its not consoles holding PC gaming back like some people claim, its PC users themselves because for every i7, GTX980Ti toting gamer complaining about cr*ppy consoles holding back his eye candy, there is 4-5 PC gamers rocking their parents HD4000 Dual core Celeron with 2 GB of RAM PC. Developers want to maximise their audience, and game engines can only be made scalable up til a point, so it makes little sense for a developer to make a game so graphically challenging that the bulk of PC gamers can't play it.