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Forums - Politics - Greece Defaults. What now?

palou on 09 July 2015
routsounmanman said:
Psychotic said:

I know it's going to have some negative effects on economies of European nations... but I still kinda want Greece to finally fall.

1) They voted in a radical left govenment they know will make negotiations with the EU harder.

"Democracy" in Europe. We don't like your government, FALL.

2) TThey have the highest social spending in the EU and they still have the audacity to tell us that cutting back on this is unacceptable.

Proof or not true. And even if it is, maybe it's necessary, because we have 26% unemployment rate, and a staggering 70% in youth. Should they just die?

3) Their government keeps demanding more money despite not doing ANYTHING their benefactors wanted, so even if they get the money, thir economy will crash regardless, justa few months/years down the line.

Right before Tsipras got elected, all Europe was congratulating Greece (even Mr. Shauble) for the biggest reforms a developed country has ever done in such a little time. We also got from a 15% deficit to a 2% surplus. Try doing that in Germany, Netherlands or any other country; with a 26% loss in GDP.

They don't deserve their second chance. They got themselves into this and we need to show everyone in the EU that the "We threw all our money away, now please give us some of yours" approach will not work.

Let them fall.

The media in your country must be good. They are probably high-fiving each other now.




Before Tsiparas was elected, things were getting better...

Maybe not for the people, but GDP was stabilizing and the government had a surplus.



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routsounmanman on 09 July 2015
nanarchy said:
routsounmanman said:
Lafiel said:

 

I am very grateful the international community granted Germany another chance after being responsible for 2 devastating and unforgivable world wars and I'm a big big benificiary of that decision, but I have no doubt our representatives of the time also showed that they know what went so very wrong and how to rebuild the country and make it a valuable partner of the international community.

Apparently, Greece is is not worth a second chance. Start a terrible war (I don't hold Germany solely responsible for WW1), devastate the entire continent, ok here you go, all forgiven. Forge fake fiscal data? ANNIHILATION.

Also, it is true that we overborrowed money during the period 2000-2009 but it's a misconception that Greece solely lived through that. Even before adopting the common currency, we were quite a healthy and strong nation (nothing compared to countries like Bulgaria, Latvia, etc that Germans insist we must come down to to become competitive).

And losing 26% of GDP is a CATASTROPHE no matter how you try to sugar coat it. And asking for painful and deep reforms (mostly taxes and cuts) during this period only makes things worse. Believe me, if this deal goes through, we're going to lose another 25% in 5 years. No country can sustain that; a default back in 2009 would have brought us in a much better position long-term, but the EU didn't let us default, to save the private baks, and shelter the other big indebted nations (Spain, Italy).

PS1: Ignore Davman, just don't even try to answer.
PS2: I respect the modern Germany, and have nothing against the German people, if anything, I find they're lovely (tourists visiting here, etc) and very educated and kind. But the whole German government has treated us like garbage that absolutely need to be punished. Angela Merkel is the worst leader the EU could have right now; if we go down, she will be remembered for this failure.

The way Germany was treated post WWI is what led to WWII with much of the debt artificialy imposed on them as everyone simply said
these are our war damages, Germany you must pay them[...]

Does this ring a bell? Debt artificially imposed, inflated actually. "It's a Greek problem". Punishment attitude. This led Germany into Hitler and WW2. Europe sure is funny.

Post WWII they did actually pay back and compensate huge amounts of their debt (though they also had a haircut on it). Greece has had 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances and renigged on each of those chances ever since entering the Euro.

Nope. Most of that was either cut or never repaid. And rightfully so; Germany could never repay if it wanted to recover.

Now on top of asking for another chance they also want another haircut on the loans while insulting those providing the loans.

Have you heard Mr. Shauble talk about Greece about these last 5 years? "Lazy", "Unreliable", and many more. Just today he "joked" about trading Puerto Riko with Greece! I mean really? TRADE A COUNTRY?

And the most unfortunate thing is that he's not the only one. We are hugely at fault for this, but humiliating us and insulting us for the past 5 years has made an entire country very angry and depressed.

It is also amusing that the cartoon says Greece accepted the debt write off as Tsipras has made repeated demands this year that the debt must be repaid, with interest in current euro equivalent.

Not the same loan. Also, they were talking about the war reparations, mostly. And even if it's wrong (it is, to me), desperation brought them here.





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Psychotic on 09 July 2015
MikeRox said:


To be fair, isn't this "as a percentage of GDP"? Which has fallen by over a quarter since the banking crisis.


Actually, that's a good point. Still, during the 2008 recession, some countries had the balls to cut back on social spending, why didn't they ?Especially if they already had around 100% GDP of national debt? I don't know, I think they had a lot of time to react and they didn't.

MikeRox said:

However they were in the EU regardless of the Euro and I have a problem with the idea of telling anyone "tough tits, you fucked up deal with it" when we're supposedly all in the same club.

Actually, I can identify with this sentiment a lot. A lot of people around me are Euro-sceptics, but I am a big fan of globalisation and and also creating an international market to rival the US and China economically... I want the Eu to succeed and keep together... so it pains me to say this - it pains me to write them off, but I don't see any other option. I mean what can you do when a member of your group feels entitled to immense sacrifice by everyone else and refuses to even make steps to make sure such a sacrifice wouldn't be completely meaningless? What kind of precedent will we set if we allow someone like Tsipras to basically blackmail Europe with "either you help us almost unconditionally or we will take you with us when we fall"?



routsounmanman on 09 July 2015
palou said:
routsounmanman said:
Psychotic said:

I know it's going to have some negative effects on economies of European nations... but I still kinda want Greece to finally fall.

1) They voted in a radical left govenment they know will make negotiations with the EU harder.

"Democracy" in Europe. We don't like your government, FALL.

2) TThey have the highest social spending in the EU and they still have the audacity to tell us that cutting back on this is unacceptable.

Proof or not true. And even if it is, maybe it's necessary, because we have 26% unemployment rate, and a staggering 70% in youth. Should they just die?

3) Their government keeps demanding more money despite not doing ANYTHING their benefactors wanted, so even if they get the money, thir economy will crash regardless, justa few months/years down the line.

Right before Tsipras got elected, all Europe was congratulating Greece (even Mr. Shauble) for the biggest reforms a developed country has ever done in such a little time. We also got from a 15% deficit to a 2% surplus. Try doing that in Germany, Netherlands or any other country; with a 26% loss in GDP.

They don't deserve their second chance. They got themselves into this and we need to show everyone in the EU that the "We threw all our money away, now please give us some of yours" approach will not work.

Let them fall.

The media in your country must be good. They are probably high-fiving each other now.




Before Tsiparas was elected, things were getting better...

Maybe not for the people, but GDP was stabilizing and the government had a surplus.

I know, and I wanted the previous government to go on for 1-2 years at least, for us to stabilize. Instead, EU "ordered" another batch of austerity measures for a petty 1 billion Euros hole, making things very hard. Not to mention ND's campaign for the elections was "vote for us in order to stay in the Euro". The people here are fed up with this, as shown in the recent referendum.

After Tsipras came to power, both sides took it to the extreme, with the Greeks and the Greek economy suffering the most from it :(



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Psychotic on 09 July 2015
routsounmanman said:


The media in your country must be good. They are probably high-fiving each other now.


Our World Press Freedom Rank: HIGHEST
Compared to the World: 13th place out of 180

Greek World Press Freedom Rank: ORANGE (3rd worst possible)
Compared to the World: 91st place out of 180

I don't wanna be rude, but maybe you would do yourself a favor if you believed my country's media over yours, mate.



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routsounmanman on 09 July 2015
Psychotic said:
routsounmanman said:


The media in your country must be good. They are probably high-fiving each other now.


Our World Press Freedom Rank: HIGHEST
Compared to the World: 13th place out of 180

Greek World Press Freedom Rank: ORANGE (3rd worst possible)
Compared to the World: 91st place out of 180

I don't wanna be rude, but maybe you would do yourself a favor if you believed my country's media over yours, mate.

Says who? And how can you measure the Press Freedom? And even if you can, free = true? Can you measure lies / bluffs?

Anyway, I don't read, watch ANY of my country's media. I read on the Internet. 100% freedom (bad and good).

Why did you ignore my other points?



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MikeRox on 09 July 2015
Psychotic said:
MikeRox said:


To be fair, isn't this "as a percentage of GDP"? Which has fallen by over a quarter since the banking crisis.


Actually, that's a good point. Still, during the 2008 recession, some countries had the balls to cut back on social spending, why didn't they ?Especially if they already had around 100% GDP of national debt? I don't know, I think they had a lot of time to react and they didn't.

MikeRox said:

However they were in the EU regardless of the Euro and I have a problem with the idea of telling anyone "tough tits, you fucked up deal with it" when we're supposedly all in the same club.

Actually, I can identify with this sentiment a lot. A lot of people around me are Euro-sceptics, but I am a big fan of globalisation and and also creating an international market to rival the US and China economically... I want the Eu to succeed and keep together... so it pains me to say this - it pains me to write them off, but I don't see any other option. I mean what can you do when a member of your group feels entitled to immense sacrifice by everyone else and refuses to even make steps to make sure such a sacrifice wouldn't be completely meaningless? What kind of precedent will we set if we allow someone like Tsipras to basically blackmail Europe with "either you help us almost unconditionally or we will take you with us when we fall"?


Indeed Tsipras has certainly really not helped with this. I do think the requirements set on Greece have been punitive. However I also see the perspective of Greece's economy is incompatible with the Euro.

There is the argument that Greece's presence though, has also helped artificially deflate the value of the Euro to help boost exports for the bigger Eurozone economies though making them far more prosperous than they would have been had Countries such as Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Italy etc no been part of the Euro. That is part of why I have a problem with being so "fuck off and die" towards Greece.

I guess maybe we should be looking at a way to eject Greece from the Euro, but also in a way that cushions the reintroduction of the drachma and doesn't make a "Grexit" so painful for ordinary Greeks?



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Psychotic on 09 July 2015
routsounmanman said:

1) Says who? And how can you measure the Press Freedom? And even if you can, free = true? Can you measure lies / bluffs?

2) Anyway, I don't read, watch ANY of my country's media. I read on the Internet. 100% freedom (bad and good).

3) Why did you ignore my other points?

 1) Say Reporters without Borders in their yearly index. Freedom and truth in the media are very inter-connected. To lie about something in a free media ecosystem is almost impossible. Just think about it. Every media outlet (both government-run and private) would have to lie about the same thing the same way, in this case with no reason to do so (in fact, they have all the reasons to protect Greece for financial reasons - their fall would hurt European markets) and there would be a huge incentive to prove them wrong.

2) Good for you. I hope you know how to get info on the internet, though. I mean... if you read Natural News or something...

3) You didn't make any, at least not aimed at me. You literally just said:

routsounmanman said:

The media in your country must be good. They are probably high-fiving each other now.

...to which I answered by showing you that yes, the media in my country are indeed good.



routsounmanman on 09 July 2015
Psychotic said:
routsounmanman said:

1) Says who? And how can you measure the Press Freedom? And even if you can, free = true? Can you measure lies / bluffs?

2) Anyway, I don't read, watch ANY of my country's media. I read on the Internet. 100% freedom (bad and good).

3) Why did you ignore my other points?

 1) Say Reporters without Borders in their yearly index. Freedom and truth in the media are very inter-connected. To lie about something in a free media ecosystem is almost impossible. Just think about it. Every media outlet (both government-run and private) would have to lie about the same thing the same way, in this case with no reason to do so (in fact, they have all the reasons to protect Greece for financial reasons - their fall would hurt European markets) and there would be a huge incentive to prove them wrong.

2) Good for you. I hope you know how to get info on the internet, though. I mean... if you read Natural News or something...

3) You didn't make any, at least not aimed at me. You literally just said:

routsounmanman said:

The media in your country must be good. They are probably high-fiving each other now.

...to which I answered by showing you that yes, the media in my country are indeed good.

Re-read my post.



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Psychotic on 09 July 2015
MikeRox said:

 

There is the argument that Greece's presence though, has also helped artificially deflate the value of the Euro to help boost exports for the bigger Eurozone economies though making them far more prosperous than they would have been had Countries such as Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Italy etc no been part of the Euro. That is part of why I have a problem with being so "fuck off and die" towards Greece.


I wonder if it was worth it in the end, considering what's happening right now.

MikeRox said:

I guess maybe we should be looking at a way to eject Greece from the Euro, but also in a way that cushions the reintroduction of the drachma and doesn't make a "Grexit" so painful for ordinary Greeks?

That is commendable. My Economics education is at a loss as to how to actually do that, but I trust that the EU leadership is qualified to handle this like you described it. Europe is interconneced after all, Eurozone or not, so it is in their best interest to make the Grexit painful as little as possible, for the good of both the Greeks and themselves.

If the Grexit were to happen of course, now it looks like maybe Greece'll stay after all...