By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft - The Great Microsoft E3 Bluff: Xbox 360 Backwards Compatibility

walsufnir said:
Shackkobe said:
Tachikoma said:

Thanks, it's great to know my many years experience developing on the PS1, GC, Wii, WiiU, Xbox, Xbox 360 and PS3, Xbox One and PS4 wasn't a total waste of my time.

It's cute that you think a theoretical peak internal performance of a 10mb edram block limited to 32gb/s link on GPU can outperform a 32mb esram block with a 100gb/s+ link to both GPU and CPU (apu package).

Not saying it out performs it, saying it creates problems. Serious hardware  problems.

Running 2x MSAA on the 360 will definitely not translate linearly to Xbox One. I respect your experience, but being experienced doesn't  make you an authority on everything. And I say that respectfully. 


Then what makes you an authority of anything tech related other than you are able to compare raw numbers?

When you understand how emulation works, these raw numbers take on a new meaning. 



Around the Network
Tachikoma said:
Shackkobe said:

Fact #1: The Xbox One is not "natively" backwards compatible with the Xbox 360.

If it was, you would be able to stick a disk in and play or download your current 360 game and play. You cant.


in order to make it work the executables need to be modified a little to properly hook in to the hardware, in order to modify a game they need permission/licensing from the content owner, no license, no modification.

 

 

Fact #3: Some Xbox 360 games are being ported over to the Xbox One and these ports are what Microsoft uses to claim backwards compatibility.

As illustrated above, the process requires modification to core files to properly work, this isn't porting, this is reconfiguration, the base system is still being emulated to match the original hardware, so again, this "fact" is untrue.

Each game needs to have the content owners permission and licensing to allow Microsoft to modify and redistribute a modifled and packed version of the game, again it is not being ported, its being emulated, backwards compatibility does not require universal support, and theyre not lying by saying that theyre introducing backwards compatibility, you are still able to run the supported games that you already own, on the new system, at no additional cost.

Some games use platform tricks to achieve certain effects, in these cases they would not work even with modification because the hacks and tricks used are so edeeply woven in with the game that the emulator cannot possibly accomodate it.

However, the fact that some games cannot be played disproves your "fact" about the games being ports, if they were genuinely porting the games theres no technical reason why some titles could never be ported.

So it's actually (for a simpleton like me) a hybrid solution of porting, but not porting, and emulation. A proper emulator will be able to play the game directly off the disc, which is what the PS3 with PS2 software emulation did when that replaced the PS3 with included emotion engine. This is of course not what Xb one can do.

So from what I've read MS has not been completely forthcoming with the details in that they have essentiall just said, "its a licencing issue" which is a half truth. This gives the technically illiterate, like me, the impression that if the game is not made available that's because the mean old rights holder is refusing to open up the licence to this form of b/c. While that may be true in some cases, as you've pointed out it is also true that it other cases it will be technically impossible to provide the game via this solution and the only option would be porting or a remaster, which MS is not going to do without wanting to recover some of the cost. It also means that in all cases there will be work to be done after the licencing issue has been sorted out, and that means time and cost (even if it's only a few hours), which means money, which means there are probably not going to be thousands of 360 games made available for playing on Xb one. Probably not even a majority.  Do you have a ballpark estimate for how long it would take to do the necessary modifications for one game?



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

Shackkobe said:

When you understand how emulation works...

Oh really..

Shackkobe said:

Also 360 code is for Power PC and not X86. 

Even porting will be an issue.

Someone needs to go read up on dynarecs and dynamic binary translators before telling others about understanding emulation.



binary solo said:
Tachikoma said:
Shackkobe said:

Fact #1: The Xbox One is not "natively" backwards compatible with the Xbox 360.

If it was, you would be able to stick a disk in and play or download your current 360 game and play. You cant.


in order to make it work the executables need to be modified a little to properly hook in to the hardware, in order to modify a game they need permission/licensing from the content owner, no license, no modification.

 

 

Fact #3: Some Xbox 360 games are being ported over to the Xbox One and these ports are what Microsoft uses to claim backwards compatibility.

As illustrated above, the process requires modification to core files to properly work, this isn't porting, this is reconfiguration, the base system is still being emulated to match the original hardware, so again, this "fact" is untrue.

 

Each game needs to have the content owners permission and licensing to allow Microsoft to modify and redistribute a modifled and packed version of the game, again it is not being ported, its being emulated, backwards compatibility does not require universal support, and theyre not lying by saying that theyre introducing backwards compatibility, you are still able to run the supported games that you already own, on the new system, at no additional cost.

Some games use platform tricks to achieve certain effects, in these cases they would not work even with modification because the hacks and tricks used are so edeeply woven in with the game that the emulator cannot possibly accomodate it.

However, the fact that some games cannot be played disproves your "fact" about the games being ports, if they were genuinely porting the games theres no technical reason why some titles could never be ported.

So it's actually (for a simpleton like me) a hybrid solution of porting, but not porting, and emulation. A proper emulator will be able to play the game directly off the disc, which is what the PS3 with PS2 software emulation did when that replaced the PS3 with included emotion engine. This is of course not what Xb one can do.

So from what I've read MS has not been completely forthcoming with the details in that they have essentiall just said, "its a licencing issue" which is a half truth. This gives the technically illiterate, like me, the impression that if the game is not made available that's because the mean old rights holder is refusing to open up the licence to this form of b/c. While that may be true in some cases, as you've pointed out it is also true that it other cases it will be technically impossible to provide the game via this solution and the only option would be porting or a remaster, which MS is not going to do without wanting to recover some of the cost. It also means that in all cases there will be work to be done after the licencing issue has been sorted out, and that means time and cost (even if it's only a few hours), which means money, which means there are probably not going to be thousands of 360 games made available for playing on Xb one. Probably not even a majority.  Do you have a ballpark estimate for how long it would take to do the necessary modifications for one game?


I don't think we should say "proper emulator" based on the ability whether the games can run off discs. The reason behind this isn't clear in any way but doesn't mean there is not an emulator at work.

I hope we will get more information so that many of the "concerns" can finally go away.



Shackkobe said:
walsufnir said:


Then what makes you an authority of anything tech related other than you are able to compare raw numbers?

When you understand how emulation works, these raw numbers take on a new meaning. 


Not when, if. And if you do, you should be able to create better threads and posts.



Around the Network
Puppyroach said:
I still don't get what the OP means is negative with X1 now giving us 360 owners 100 games by fall 2015 that are compatible.


It's negative because for God knows what reason it makes him feel insecure.







VGChartz♥♥♥♥♥FOREVER

Xbone... the new "N" word   Apparently I troll MS now | Evidence | Evidence
binary solo said:

Do you have a ballpark estimate for how long it would take to do the necessary modifications for one game?

A large portion of the conversion would be done automatically, then it's simply a case of testing and tweaking configurations, the emulator will be setup to handle a range of potential solutions, such as redirecting edram addressing for AA and anisotropic functions to shaders, but with flagged switching for different titles to change what hooks to enable and disable, for example if a title was using parts of the hardware for aa, you'd setup the emulators flag to hook those functions and pass them on, but if the software wasnt, you could use those resources for something else instead.

The argument of comparing peak ram speeds for self contained modules and ignoring the actual transfer rate between memory block and system bus is pretty much a dead end as far as discussion goes, but the problem is, op takes the "you must not understand" approach when he clearly doesn't comprehend why the figures and "facts" he is spouting aren't really relevant to the situation.



walsufnir said:

I hope we will get more information so that many of the "concerns" can finally go away.

Concerns? it looks more like trolling to me.

*stares at op*



Tachikoma said:
Shackkobe said:

When you understand how emulation works...

Oh really..

Shackkobe said:

Also 360 code is for Power PC and not X86. 

Even porting will be an issue.

Someone needs to go read up on dynarecs and dynamic binary translators before telling others about understanding emulation.


Yeah, yeah. 

You thought I had no idea about what I was talking about.

Someone needs to stop throwing their qualifications and technical jargon about. I see through your act. 



twintail said:
where do your facts come from?

I feel like I need more info on each of your points.


I think its more an emotional outburst of some kind rather than fact providing. Not sure what the agenda is here...



Xbox 360 and Xbox One

Gamertag:  GamertagOz70