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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Prediction: "Cartridges" will return for the Nintendo home console

Honestly guys its about necessity more so than anything else.
You CANNOT have a physical disk drive on a handheld, without it being gigant and powerhungry.

I think the idea of haveing the same "medium" for both the handheld and the consol, is brilliant.

"take your games with you on the go".

(no compromises, its the same game, on the handheld as on the consol. To me thats a huge selling point)

(as a consumer you wont have to buy differnt versions of the same game, if you want to play on one or the other, or have to choose between them)

***** OBS : brillient idea = make it so you can share "save game data" between your consol and handheld... BOOOOOOM.

You can now play the same game at home in front of a tv, then contiune on your handheld from the exact same place you left off, before leaveing for work/school ect.


Developers will love you for it:
You wont have to develop the game for the consol and then port it to the handheld.

(double the market penetration, both handheld and consol sales for 1 game)

You wont have to have 2 productions for the same game.
(mass production => cheaper than haveing 2 productions running for every game made for your system.



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As far as I can remember Iwata's statements about their future consoles he's said they're aiming for a unified OS, something akin to iOS where you have the iPone and iPad. Did he really indicate that the devices would share the same games? Let's remember that iPhones and iPads both have their own exclusives....



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

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DanneSandin said:
As far as I can remember Iwata's statements about their future consoles he's said they're aiming for a unified OS, something akin to iOS where you have the iPone and iPad. Did he really indicate that the devices would share the same games? Let's remember that iPhones and iPads both have their own exclusives....


He didn't but the were whispers or some kind of patent of a concept called Fusion with one hardware unit accomdating both Handheld and home markets, the IOS style concept was mentioned by him. 



DanneSandin said:
Bofferbrauer said:

You do are aware that SD cards can hold right now over 10 times more data than a Blu-Ray Disc? The biggest SD cards you could buy atm have 512 GB of space, which is even over 20 times what an optical disc can have. Granted, these SD cards cost something like 600$ a piece, but space definitly ain't a problem here

@DanneSandin

The drawbacks of SD cards over Blu-Ray discs are:

- Production price: Flash memory is expensive (which is why SD cards will not be used, it need to be ROMs which are way cheaper to produce once it's set up. See posts on first page for details)

- Transfer speed: even less bandwith than Blu-Ray discs for the most part, which would mean even longer loading times

- But the main problem is: God damn easy to copy. The Internet would get flooded with the games for the console practically the instant they get released.

Seriously, using SD cards would be the dumbest thing they could do. Using a new format of similar size with ROMs are no problem, but standard SD cards would be suicide. No one would want to produce games for a format without any possibility for at least an halfway decent copy protection.

Ok sounds reasonable. What do you think Nintendo should do then? What format would fit them if they wanna bring back cartridges? Seems like you know what ur talkin about

Some yet nonexisiting form factor.

If the portable console should read the same cartridges: Somewhat bigger than SD cards cards overall, but very different form ( think about GBA cartridges flattened to SD card thickness just as an example; such a broad format would allow more connectors on the cards and along with it, a higher transer rate). If not, a more classical cartridge could be used with more space for later extensions and more connectors for even more transfer speed, but at a higher production cost.

This would give Nintendo several advantages: Custom-made for their needs, full product control, and along with these, a physical copy protection as there are no readers for them exept the consoles and the Software Development Kits (that doesn't mean no other copy protection would be needed, it would just be another layer of protection).

@exdeath: It's true that the fastest SD cards also have a higher transfer speed than Blu-Ray discs, but these SDXC cards are also relatively expensive in production. That's why I said "for the most part". Also, a theoretical 20x Speed Blu-Ray drive would be just as fast.

In any case, these transfer speeds are very slow and not really on par with the needs of video games, where a 200+ MB/s Transfer speed would be very useful. For comparision: SATA III has a theoretical maximum of 750 MB/s, SATA-Express in the latest Intel-PCs almost reach 2GB/s, USB 3.0 theoretically could reach 625 MB/s, double that for the new 3.1 standard (USB however does loose quite a bit on their overhead), so 90 MB/s are ridicilously small to the capabilities of modern standards



Bofferbrauer said:
DanneSandin said:

Ok sounds reasonable. What do you think Nintendo should do then? What format would fit them if they wanna bring back cartridges? Seems like you know what ur talkin about

Some yet nonexisiting form factor.

If the portable console should read the same cartridges: Somewhat bigger than SD cards cards overall, but very different form ( think about GBA cartridges flattened to SD card thickness just as an example; such a broad format would allow more connectors on the cards and along with it, a higher transer rate). If not, a more classical cartridge could be used with more space for later extensions and more connectors for even more transfer speed, but at a higher production cost.

This would give Nintendo several advantages: Custom-made for their needs, full product control, and along with these, a physical copy protection as there are no readers for them exept the consoles and the Software Development Kits (that doesn't mean no other copy protection would be needed, it would just be another layer of protection).

@exdeath: It's true that the fastest SD cards also have a higher transfer speed than Blu-Ray discs, but these SDXC cards are also relatively expensive in production. That's why I said "for the most part". Also, a theoretical 20x Speed Blu-Ray drive would be just as fast.

In any case, these transfer speeds are very slow and not really on par with the needs of video games, where a 200+ MB/s Transfer speed would be very useful. For comparision: SATA III has a theoretical maximum of 750 MB/s, SATA-Express in the latest Intel-PCs almost reach 2GB/s, USB 3.0 theoretically could reach 625 MB/s, double that for the new 3.1 standard (USB however does loose quite a bit on their overhead), so 90 MB/s are ridicilously small to the capabilities of modern standards


SATA 6G is 550-600 MB sec in practice.  Address, interrupt, and control data are now headers and packets, eg, everything is data in a serial bus.  There is also 8/10 encoding of the data to keep in mind.

Yeah 90 MB/sec is nothing (I use 2.5 GB/sec SSD arrays and 10 gigabit Infiniband)  but its still 1000x faster than a disc when you start seeking.  Though it's probably not that important on a console where the game is built from ground up to stream sequentially off the media and not like a PC where theres lots of random I/O and misc. scanning and searching going on all the time.

Sata Express needs to be a thing faster.  SATA 6g is such a bottleneck and the only way to get around is it multiple channels.



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The idea is actually very good, Rol.
Seems like a very pragmatic proposition and a cheap one at that, too (something that Nintendo likes).

I think the only thing against it really is 3rd parties.

It's true that a lot of devs have dismissed Nintendo's consoles, but we can't overlook the fact that Nintendo's strategy for it's consoles - especially the home console - was nowhere near insync with 3rd parties of doing business.
3rd parties strategy was, although, perfectly insync with Sony and MS - or vice-versa.

Now,we know that Nintendo's strategy aside, companies like Ubisoft, Activision and some japanese companies will be willing to at least try and support at first.
And japanes devs won't hesitate to support Fusion even if because of the handheld market.
How will that work for them?

Imagining now that Nintendo's strategy is to have as much classic Nintendo titles as 3rd party-like titles.
That will create a market for 3rd parties if Nintendo is successful; 3rd parties will see that and will want to join in. Do they have the right conditions to do that or lack of space will stop them?

Nintendo needs to take care of what will happen but also of what can happen.
Doing things just for Nintendo's liking is what they have been doing for generations and look what that got them.



exdeath said:
Bofferbrauer said:

Some yet nonexisiting form factor.

If the portable console should read the same cartridges: Somewhat bigger than SD cards cards overall, but very different form ( think about GBA cartridges flattened to SD card thickness just as an example; such a broad format would allow more connectors on the cards and along with it, a higher transer rate). If not, a more classical cartridge could be used with more space for later extensions and more connectors for even more transfer speed, but at a higher production cost.

This would give Nintendo several advantages: Custom-made for their needs, full product control, and along with these, a physical copy protection as there are no readers for them exept the consoles and the Software Development Kits (that doesn't mean no other copy protection would be needed, it would just be another layer of protection).

@exdeath: It's true that the fastest SD cards also have a higher transfer speed than Blu-Ray discs, but these SDXC cards are also relatively expensive in production. That's why I said "for the most part". Also, a theoretical 20x Speed Blu-Ray drive would be just as fast.

In any case, these transfer speeds are very slow and not really on par with the needs of video games, where a 200+ MB/s Transfer speed would be very useful. For comparision: SATA III has a theoretical maximum of 750 MB/s, SATA-Express in the latest Intel-PCs almost reach 2GB/s, USB 3.0 theoretically could reach 625 MB/s, double that for the new 3.1 standard (USB however does loose quite a bit on their overhead), so 90 MB/s are ridicilously small to the capabilities of modern standards


SATA 6G is 550-600 MB sec in practice.  Address, interrupt, and control data are now headers and packets, eg, everything is data in a serial bus.  There is also 8/10 encoding of the data to keep in mind.

Yeah 90 MB/sec is nothing (I use 2.5 GB/sec SSD arrays and 10 gigabit Infiniband)  but its still 1000x faster than a disc when you start seeking.  Though it's probably not that important on a console where the game is built from ground up to stream sequentially off the media and not like a PC where theres lots of random I/O and misc. scanning and searching going on all the time.

Sata Express needs to be a thing faster.  SATA 6g is such a bottleneck and the only way to get around is it multiple channels.

Yeah I know of the limitations of SATA, that's why I said theoretical maximum. It's enough for HDDs but wholefully inedequate for SSDs which get limited by it's narrow bandwith.

SATA express is based on PCI-Express, so with PCIE 4.0, almost 4 GB/s would be possible. That should suffice for most SSDs.

I hope more the producers will soon start using PCI Express, still can't find SSDs for this connection despite it's advantages over SATA 6G



Such a good idea that it seems like a no-brainer to me. 

Saw a post about backwards compatibility...  Was it nice for the GBA, DS, 3DS, Wii and Wii U?  Yes, but if it holds them back on their next systems then I say screw it.  They just need to add ability to transfer your VC collection (Wii, Wii U eshop and 3DS eshop VC games) to the new systems.  WiiWare and other games can stay on whatever system they are on.  Sony and Microsoft didn't allow transfers of their eshop games to their new consoles and there wasn't too much uproar.  I'm sure it would be different in regards to Nintendo though.



I still believe in the phisical media. The industry still are developing tecnology for disc based medias, and new formats are possible with great gains in storage capacity and speed.
But this only time will tell...



exdeath said:
archer9234 said:
Yerm said:
i like this, i like it a lot, but lets push out "Nintendo" from the main focus. what about consoles in general and how it could actually be a huge benefit for everyone.---

-even MicroSD cards can hold up to 128GB of storage, and that dwarfs GTA V's 60 gig size.

-cartridges returning would mean no longer needing Hard Drive space for save files or to download data from multidisk games. imagine popping GTA V into a PC and playing it immediated with no downloads?

-i dont think single cartridges for multiple devices is possible, but price cuts for the little guys are definitely a go. maybe we could go back to the $50/$30 price range opposed to todays $60/$40...

What about patches? If a game has to keep being patched. And only a certain amount of memory is in the game. They can't do it. What about DLC? Halo's MCC patch was 20GB. So really the SD card alike would need to be 100GB. Than DLC has no place to be installed. You're forgetting the cost of a 128GB SD card. It's the sole reason why we still use discs today. Or BD would be SD cards too. The card alone would be 90%+ of the cost of the game. Games costs would have to rise to compensate for the cuts needed for the company and retailers.

Lets think about this.  We don't write DLC to BD ROMs on Wii U, PS4, or XBO do we?  Same thing.  Nothing changes.

I was talking about people who were sugesting to not have a HDD of any kind, in the system.