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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why Are You An Atheist?

I was never a religious person. I used to go to church when I was little, but I never felt a strong connection with Christianity. In late elementary school I became interested in Science and Astronomy and with years of reading, I came to the conclusion that I didn't believe in any sort of deity.



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sc94597 said:
SlayerRondo said:

- When it comes to factual claims like the existence of a god and so on then yes. When it comes to questions of good and evil I divert to philosophy.

- Emotions and intuition should not influence the results of science. People believing in god because of their feelings is not reasonable and an exception to their normal standards of evidence. And while Einstein may have been intuitive that is simply part of his method and not the results. Intuition takes you down a path, sometimes the wrong path, while reason and evidence provide the results. 

- Intuition is not the same as having irrational beliefs, intuition is often based of experience or natural characteristics and is sometimes wrong. If a belief is proven to be irrational I see no value in it other than in what can be learned from being wrong. But to learn from being wrong you first have to admit it.

- It's not hard at all to understand how people came to that belief, they were afraid of death and convinced themselves that there was something waiting for them afterwards. While thier emotions may have lead them to this belief it says nothing about the belief being true.

- And while the afterlife has never been disproven that is besides the point. People, as a rule, do not go around believing things because they have yet to be disproved. The flying spagettie monster has yet to be disproved, and it may be impossible to do so, but the burden of proof is on the one making the claim and not the one asking why they should belive it.


- In that case you agree that not all beliefs must be based on empiricism/rational (quantifiable) data. What makes one philosophy better than another? The question of a dieties existence is not a scientific question because it is not testable and therefore not in the realm of science. Do you then leave it to philosophy? 

If a factual claim can't be tested in any way then there is no reason to believe it. If I claim something exist ten billion miles away that can't be proven then tough luck for me.

- I agree, they should not influence the results of science. But they do. And in some circumstances they do it positively (people try harder.) 

They influence people's path to the results and are helpful in that manner. I'm not saying emotions and intuition have no value at all and did not mean to come off that way.

- Intuition incorporates both experential (poorly quantifiable data) and non-quantifiable data (assumptions based off logic.) For the matter of epistemological purposes, intuitiion is an irrational form of knowledge gathering. Yet, it is necessary precisely because it helps push us toward rational beliefs. 

I agree with that. For example, someone may have an intuitive sense based of prior experience that the area that their in would be great for drilling, The next step should be getting the resources to prove his hypothesis correct. Intuition leads us to the hypothesis, reason and evidence lead us to the theory.

-  It is only a scientific question if it is testable. Anything that is not testable is not in the realm of science whether that be the existence of a deity or a multiverse. The field of philosophy which addresses these untestable assertions is called metaphysics. 

The existence of a deity is testable as most people claim it. The reason why it can't be tested is because it has shown no signs of existing. Metaphysics is allot of talk about nothing and has very little if any value in determining the truth. If something that is claimed to exist cannot be tested it is the same as not existing at all.

-  The point I've been trying to bring across is that ALL people have such beliefs. Whether he/she is a physicist who believes (without any reason other than feeling) that there is a theory of everything  that can be written in one equation, a biologist who interprets that the (factual) existence of mirror neurons helps people live through others after death, a person who believes (based on feelings and maybe some logic) that income inequality should or should not exist, or a person who believes that there are beings seperate from the observable reality whom exist and have in the past interacted with said observable reality, but whom no longer do. It is unrealistic to expect an entirely rational human being. It is also unreasonable (which you conceded by philosophy) to expect all beliefs to be explainable through rational means. 

All people have beliefs thaa are wrong, me included, but that does not mean we should not seek to improve by eliminating false belief's. And while that physicist may feel that theory exist, she devotes herself to proving the point and not claiming it's true simply based on those feelings, same for the biologist. Income inequality is not a factual claim and therefore the realm of philosophy. The person who believe's in the beings who once existed but no longer do has made a factual claim and needs to provide reason and/or evidence as to why it should be believed. I also don't descriminate against people for not being entirely rational, but when it come's to factual claims I believe that being in possession of more truth is a good thing.

People will never be perfect, but that does not mean we should give up trying to be better.





This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

sc94597 said:
SlayerRondo said:
sc94597 said:
JWeinCom said:

Einstein did not believe in any personal god, or super natural phenomena.  When he said "God does not play dice" he was using the term god in a poetic sense.  Einstein has explained his beliefs explicitly several times, and has vehemently denied his belief in any sort of personal god.  He saw the cosmos and the laws of physics as beautiful and awe inspiring, and that was the only sort of "religious" views he held.  He may have thought there were some unknown factors at play, but not unknowable.


Was not my point. Please re-read. 

Einstein's methods were influenced by intuition, but the end results were based on reason and evidence.

This particular statement involved not a scientific result, but rather a scientific belief. Said scientific belief however was not based on the scientific process, but on intuition. 

Scientific belief's are based on scientific results. And it really was more of a feeling that a factual claim he was making.



This is the Game of Thrones

Where you either win

or you DIE

sc94597 said:
SlayerRondo said:

I disagree and think it's a completely realistic standard to hold that the belief's people hold should be based on reason and empirical data.

I am not going to pretend I know the first thing about string theory but if any of the arguments are based on intuition and emotions I will gladly disregard them if that's all there is to it.

I will agree the irrational beliefs are in no way restricted to religion but religions themselves have never presented any rational basis for believing in them.

And intuition, while it can be helpful it can also prove harmful as it can norrow our ways of thinking as it does when it comes to religion. Many people have a strong intuition that their is a god because they have had it drilled into them as children that their is one as did most of their ancestors. Intuition may lead us to ask a question but does not provide the answer as many people claim to have.

Allegory can be a double edged sword as well since it is in many cases harmful and open to dangerous interpretations in other's. With religious allegory you take the good with the bad, with reason and common sense you can just take the good. Many people are no longer able to follow their religious teaching because their standards of morality are superior to those found within their faith.

As to the question of the afterlife I have never seen a rational argument for why I should believe their is an afterlife and can only view it as an irrational belief.

Can you tell me that every single belief you hold (and please include the ones which you've not fully self realized) is based off a testable experiment? If not, how can you expect the same of others? It is alright for some beliefs to not be hyper-rational because we are human beings. 

All science has emotions and intuition in it. People don't do science as if they are robots. We do it  because we enjoy it, and we pursue particular ideas because we are interested in them especially. It takes a lot of work and rigor to make sure the science is bias-proof and a lot of mental strength to drop an unsupportable idea. It contradicts our primal humanity, and it isn't very easy, even for the most empirical thinkers. For an example of a highly intuitive scientist you just have to look at Einstein. He often pursued interests based off of intuition. For example, he claimed, "God does not play with dice" with regards to Quantum Mechanics. Basically he felt that the uncertainty at the micro-level was due to an unknown phenomena, whereas his colleagues were pretty sure it was inherently fundamental. Einstein made this claim based off of experential knowledge and not empirical knowledge. I keep citing physics, because it is the most rational (as in quantifiable) science and therefore would logically have the most rational thinkers.

Certrainly, I never objected to the existence of the harm of intuition. My point was that there is value in irrational beliefs, and the good of intuition is a necessary wheel in scientific progression as wheel in the progression of other pursuits of knowledge or beliefs. 

Unfortunately (or maybe not unfortunately) there is no measurement that can be made with regards to morality and ethics. It is necessarily subjective. This is a prime example of a case in which no matter how hard you try to apply reason (quantify something) you just can't do a good job. Ethics is a field principally based on emotion and feeling. Why do we not kill people? Because we feel guilt, for example. So anytime somebody tries to construct an objective moral or ethical system the end result is more often than not conflict, and the "bad" (for most people) does come with the good. This is true for the most rational ethical system and the least rational one. What is good and bad is not something we test and observe of reality, but is something we feel and introspect upon. Ironically for this matter certain religions are the ones (but not solely) which try to claim that we can quantify ethics/morals and in that case are the ones whom attempt to be rational (albeit they fail at it.) 

Afterlife is a question which we need a lot of pre-requisite science to test. First we need to understand what consciousness is, empirically and in detail. After that we might be able to posit reasonable assumptions with regards to afterlife and test them. However, it is a belief that hasn't really been solidly falsified yet, and certain concepts of afterlife (such as mirror neurons or mind uploading) have been emprically studied and observed.  So unlike certain other irrational (non-quantifiable) beliefs held by people, it isn't quite odd to understand that people hold such a belief and how they've come to it. 

Important ones yes. Grand theories or ideas need to be backed up the more extravagant they are.

If someone tells me they have a Dog I do not need to ask for evidence as I know owning dogs is a common thing among humans.
If someone tells me that Evolution is correct and that animals have been changing overtime to suit the environment, I would need evidence (which is easily available)

If someone tells me the continents are moving I would ask for evidence (which is easily available)
If science claims the universe began with an initial expansion from a single point in space then I would ask for evidence and they would provide.

If someone is claiming that the universe was created by a timeless intelligent being then I would ask for evidence, if it cannot be provided I cannot accept this grand claim. I'm not saying they're wrong I'm saying it would be foolish to accept any grand claim without a shred of evidence. If there was 0 evidence for Evolution, you can believe it but it wouldn't be justifiable on any logical basis EVEN THOUGH you would be correct to believe it.



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SlayerRondo said:
sc94597 said:
SlayerRondo said:
sc94597 said:
JWeinCom said:

Einstein did not believe in any personal god, or super natural phenomena.  When he said "God does not play dice" he was using the term god in a poetic sense.  Einstein has explained his beliefs explicitly several times, and has vehemently denied his belief in any sort of personal god.  He saw the cosmos and the laws of physics as beautiful and awe inspiring, and that was the only sort of "religious" views he held.  He may have thought there were some unknown factors at play, but not unknowable.


Was not my point. Please re-read. 

Einstein's methods were influenced by intuition, but the end results were based on reason and evidence.

This particular statement involved not a scientific result, but rather a scientific belief. Said scientific belief however was not based on the scientific process, but on intuition. 

Scientific belief's are based on scientific results. And it really was more of a feeling that a factual claim he was making.

Yet most of his peers felt that the results showed an inherent uncertainty not some yet-unknown hidden factors. And you are precisely right, this belief of his is based off of a feeling not on facts alone. 



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JWeinCom said:
It's pretty simple. I have not seen any compelling evidence to believe in a deity.

The idea of a deistic god (one who created the universe but does not intervene) is unlikely, but possible. The idea of a theistic god (one that does intervene) I find highly unlikely. The idea of of a personal god (one that is interested in human affairs) is something I am nearly positive does not exist. As for any god that has thus far been proposed by man (yaweh, allah, jesus, zeus, appolo, krishna, brahma etc.) I am as close to 100% sure they do not exist as possible (although in fairness I haven't been exposed to every single god).

I would like to correct your opening statement. I did not choose to be an atheist, any more than I chose to believe in a heliocentric solar system. It is not a choice, but an interpretation of the available evidence. It's not a choice to believe in anything. It's a matter of how your mind processes the data.

And if people would like to quote me and tell me I'm wrong, they may do so (it's fine by me, but I can't speak for the OP and mods). I'm pretty comfortable in my stance, and if anyone can actually prove a deity to me with evidence, I would welcome that.

I figured I'd elaborate on this, because it covers my view well, and I might be able to provide a slightly different way of thinking about it.

What has been described is "Scientific Atheism" (and I'd describe my position as scientific atheism, too). It's rooted in the same principles that all scientific discovery operates under - you formulate a falsifiable hypothesis, and then test that hypothesis, searching for evidence contradicting it. If a hypothesis isn't falsifiable, it has no value, as there is no way to determine whether it is right or wrong.

As it is not possible to prove nonexistence of something (try to prove that there isn't a teapot floating somewhere in space between the earth and the moon), existence isn't falsifiable. So the hypothesis we test is "there is no god". And so, we seek evidence contradicting that statement. And scientific atheists generally have not been presented with evidence (that is in any way convincing) contradicting it.

Of course, there is also the classic saying "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" - basically, it's not enough to point to something, go "that is a lot less likely if there is no god than if there is one", and call it a day. Extremely unlikely event happen all the time, because the total number of events is extraordinarily massive. An event that happens exactly once across all time has a probability of 0, yet happens. And this is why it's so hard for a scientific atheist to be convinced of the existence of a deity - the sheer number of other plausible explanations make it very hard to disprove the nonexistence of god (you can disprove nonexistence, as far as physical "proof" goes, by observing something's existence). It will take more than a list of "miracles".

To demonstrate why, consider two examples of "miracles" that actually have solid scientific explanations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Mumbai_sweet_seawater_incident
Water in a particular river in Mumbai suddenly turned sweet, drawing massive numbers of people to drink the water. And indeed, the normally salty water had turned sweet. Seems like a miracle, right? As it turns out, fresh water from an area with rocks that produce a sweet flavour had made it into the river when the rocks had cracked (releasing the stored fresh water), and the fresh, sweet water floated on top of the salty water (before it had had a chance to mix). Meanwhile, many who partook of that water ended up with gastroenteritis due to the various bacteria and toxins in the river.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle
Hindu statues exposed to milk at their various trunks, etc, seemed to "drink" the milk. Turns out, it was capillary action drawing the milk out of the various receptacles, and they could trace the milk's path using coloured milk (coloured with food dye). So what seemed miraculous was just physics at work.

There are many more, but I don't want to make this too long. Other "miracles" of this sort have turned out to be hoaxes (almost all instances of "weeping statues" have turned out to be faked - most of the remainder have other scientific explanations that have been confirmed, leaving few without certain explanation).

Which naturally begs the question - are the unexplained "miracles" really done by a deity? Or are they unexplained because we don't know everything about the universe in terms of physics, chemistry, etc?

Scientific atheists generally consider most beliefs in deities to be cases of "god of the gaps" - basically, "we can't explain it, so it must be god". The same reasoning led to early human civilisations having a god of fire, a god of water, etc. As they grew more sophisticated, so too did the gods - god of fertility, god of war, etc. And as science explained more things, the number of gods dropped... now it's just one (in the western world - in the east, other religions are still polytheistic).

I would propose that scientific atheists are not worried about the unknown. We don't fear the unknown, we revel in it, because it means there is more for us to discover. We aren't afraid to say "I don't know", and don't try to come up with explanations before we have evidence or justification on which to base those explanations. We don't assume that spontaneous remission is due to god, we look for evidence of a cause (and science is slowly, but surely, unravelling explanations for it). It works exactly the same as how science itself works - hypothesise, then attempt to disprove hypothesis.

 

On the risk of detouring off topic, this is also why most scientists have a problem with "climate change denialists". They don't start with a falsifiable hypothesis. To be falsifiable, it has to be exact. "Human-related emissions of CO2 are causing the climate to change, increasing average temperatures" is an exact concept. "Something else is causing the climate to change" is vague. And when they do come up with a falsifiable hypothesis, they aren't interested in evidence contradicting their hypothesis ("sun spots cause climate change" - nope, extensive investigation has shown that it couldn't possibly explain it, but you won't hear the denialists admit it).

Of course, we're not going to be so arrogant (generally - I'm not going to speak for Dawkins, who I have little respect for) as to suggest that belief must be wrong. Religion and science exist in different thought processes. I do not claim that scientific reasoning is superior, just that it works for me. If you wish to consider certain "miracles" to support your view, you won't hear me complain (unless there's a solid scientific explanation, of course - same as how you wouldn't call "I found my keys" a miracle). Just realise that when you attribute the unknown to god, your thinking isn't the only possible way of thinking on the issue.



SlayerRondo said:

- If a factual claim can't be tested in any way then there is no reason to believe it. If I claim something exist ten billion miles away that can't be proven then tough luck for me.

- The existence of a deity is testable as most people claim it. The reason why it can't be tested is because it has shown no signs of existing. Metaphysics is allot of talk about nothing and has very little if any value in determining the truth. If something that is claimed to exist cannot be tested it is the same as not existing at all.

-  The point I've been trying to bring across is that ALL people have such beliefs. Whether he/she is a physicist who believes (without any reason other than feeling) that there is a theory of everything  that can be written in one equation, a biologist who interprets that the (factual) existence of mirror neurons helps people live through others after death, a person who believes (based on feelings and maybe some logic) that income inequality should or should not exist, or a person who believes that there are beings seperate from the observable reality whom exist and have in the past interacted with said observable reality, but whom no longer do. It is unrealistic to expect an entirely rational human being. It is also unreasonable (which you conceded by philosophy) to expect all beliefs to be explainable through rational means. 

- All people have beliefs thaa are wrong, me included, but that does not mean we should not seek to improve by eliminating false belief's. And while that physicist may feel that theory exist, she devotes herself to proving the point and not claiming it's true simply based on those feelings, same for the biologist. Income inequality is not a factual claim and therefore the realm of philosophy. The person who believe's in the beings who once existed but no longer do has made a factual claim and needs to provide reason and/or evidence as to why it should be believed. I also don't descriminate against people for not being entirely rational, but when it come's to factual claims I believe that being in possession of more truth is a good thing.

People will never be perfect, but that does not mean we should give up trying to be better.

 

- I don't disagree with this, as my beliefs are based on rational expectations. I can see how certain religions get around this though. For example, in Christianity the evidence is based on experential knowledge. People literally "experience" god. There have been studies that show that people who are religious have certain portions of their brain active which induce the feeling of being watched or that somebody is in the same room as them. So to them, god isn't a billion miles away, but in constant contact. They can't quantify it, but they do experience it. And that is why they surmise it to be true for them. It has only been recently that we can explain through science the experience they have, and for that reason it is hard to convince people that what they are experiencing is just a trick of how their brains work. 

-  Yet scientists subscribe to tons of metaphysics. Multiverse theories, whether or not aliens exist, and whether or not mathematics is real or just human modeling are very frequent exisistential (questions about existence) questions scientists try to address, in many cases without testing said theories (in example, Enrico Fermi concluded that aliens likely do not exist because we haven't met them yet many scientists believe in the existence of intelligence alien life.) I can name dozens of existential philosophies scientists subscribe to. 

- I was mostly addressing this point you made way back. 

"It's sad that people will suspend reason and common sense when it comes to the question of religion more than anything else. ."

"There are really smart people I know that come off as reasonable 99% of the time but when it comes to religion they seem to throw reason and common sense out the window."

It isn't just religion that these (or all) people suspend reason for. The things these physicsits and biologists make exisistential statements for are not testable claims, so they can't really "devotes herself to proving the point and not claiming it's true simply based on those feelings." We cannot test a multiverse and likely never will, for example, yet many believe in its existence (myself included.) It makes sense logically, but so do many things. 



Skullwaker said:
I didn't realize there were so many atheists on this site until this thread.


That is because we are not "all in you face" about it. Theres no magic book to tell us what to do. We just dont care to "spread the word". We accept that it is the logical conclusion and whoever wants to see it, will see it. :)



Simply, I do not see any evidence for the existence of a deity nor do I really have a reason to believe in one. If people do, that's fine with me but personally religion just doesn't really appeal to me .



Because: "Why not?"

There will always be a question unanswered and there is no way to get all the answers.



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