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Forums - Politics - Indiana Governer signs bill allowing businesses to reject gay customers.

sc94597 said:
Runa216 said:

I thought you said you weren't going to respond anymore. 

I said I wasn't responding in that quote tree between me and Aura as it was getting heated for no reason.  If people are so much more homophobic and racist in the United States than in Canada, why are hate crimes around the same proportions? 

Because hate crimes are not the only unit of measure for homophobia and racism.



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Aura7541 said:
sc94597 said:

I said I wasn't responding in that quote tree between me and Aura as it was getting heated for no reason.  If people are so much more homophobic and racist in the United States than in Canada, why are hate crimes around the same proportions? 

Because hate crimes are not the only unit of measure for homophobia and racism.

It would make sense that a more racist/homophobic population would have proportionally more hate motivated crimes, would it not? 



sc94597 said:
Wonktonodi said:

Why should they deny homesexuals? where in their religion does it say to do such a thing? If they are taking a part that is mostly abandoned that mentions homosexuality to be a sin, yet not denying buisness to other sinners how is that being religeous? and actually no, they don't have equal rights, religion is protected under the constitution and in the state of Indiana, beign gay not so much. The law allows people of a religion to desciminate. It doesn't suddenly make it legal to descriminate against them actually.

I'm not a subscriber of any religion, let alone their particular religion so I can't say exactly, but I think the argument the bakeries had (which this law is a reaction to) was that they don't want to take part in the ceremony which they considered it sinful to do so by producing the wedding cake. It isn't like they wouldn't sell a cupcake to a gay person, they just don't want to be involved in a gay wedding (making a wedding cake is more than selling the cake, you have to prepare it for the wedding specifically, have multiple corespondences with the couple, ask questions regarding their wedding, etc, etc.) As a 5 on the kinsey scale, I think it is more wrong to sue these people or shut down their business for standing by their beliefs, even if their beliefs are hurtful, in my eyes wrong, and illogical, which I say as an athiest. 


At what point are they really following their beleifs and at what point is it just descriminating against people so they can look like they are following? How far does that business deny sevice? If they only serve members of their own religious comunity who are holding to a certain standard, I'd agree, but at that point the buisiness would probably be clearly advertised as such, but if they are willing to serve many people who don't follow their strict religious standards and only draw the line at homosexuals, I think it's fine for them to be sued.  Real and through religious convictions are very different from "lets bash the gays or deny them service to feel closer to god"



sc94597 said:
Aura7541 said:

Because hate crimes are not the only unit of measure for homophobia and racism.

It would make sense that a more racist/homophobic population would have proportionally more hate motivated crimes, would it not? 

Yes, but is it the only unit of measure? Also, do all 50 states in the US have the same definition and interpretation of what constitutes a hate crime? Do the number of hate crimes reported represent the actual number of hate crimes that occurred?



Aura7541 said:
sc94597 said:

It would make sense that a more racist/homophobic population would have proportionally more hate motivated crimes, would it not? 

Yes, but is it the only unit of measure? Also, do all 50 states in the US have the same definition and interpretation of what constitutes a hate crime? Do the number of hate crimes reported represent the actual number of hate crimes that occurred?

Certainly not the only way to measure the amount of racism/homophobia, but I think it is probably the best way we can measure it. It measures how many extremely hateful people there are that they'd commit crimes due to their hate. As for the criteria of the statistics it was the FBI who collected the information, not the state governments. Same with the Canadian statistics, it was their national statistics agency which collected the information. We can argue that the stastics might not be fully accurate, but that still puts them in the same order of magntitude 2/10,000 (for U.S) and 4/10,000 (for Canada.) Even if the United States missed out on one case for every one case with respect to Canada's stasticis agency, that would just put it at the same proportions as Canada. 



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fatherofone said:

For those that want to read the bill, I suggest you do.  If you are conserned about a government agency forcing a person to do something against their religious belief then you will be protected.   That is it.  

 

The synopisis (note the real bill isn't much longer)

Religious freedom restoration. Prohibits a governmental entity from substantially burdening a person's exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability, unless the governmental entity can demonstrate that the burden: (1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering the compelling governmental interest. Provides a procedure for remedying a violation. Specifies that the religious freedom law applies to the implementation or application of a law regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity or official is a party to a proceeding implementing or applying  the law. Prohibits an applicant, employee, or former employee from pursuing certain causes of action against a private employer.

Right, but in a roundabout way it means that private discrimination is allowed, because that means a government entity can't force a business to serve LGBT+ individuals if they object on religious rounds, because it is the governmental entity (the police, etc) that would force compliance with non-discrimination if the issue was pressed.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

You should be allowed to reject anyone service based on their attitude or if they make you feel unsafe and etc. Not based on who they are.



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sc94597 said:
Aura7541 said:

Because hate crimes are not the only unit of measure for homophobia and racism.

It would make sense that a more racist/homophobic population would have proportionally more hate motivated crimes, would it not? 

not if those places don't consider crimes against people because they are gay "hate crimes" Why not also look at how protected or decriminated gays are under the law. If there is equal protection under the law, vs a severe lacking of protections in housing, employment etc.



sc94597 said:
Aura7541 said:

Yes, but is it the only unit of measure? Also, do all 50 states in the US have the same definition and interpretation of what constitutes a hate crime? Do the number of hate crimes reported represent the actual number of hate crimes that occurred?

Certainly not the only way to measure the amount of racism/homophobia, but I think it is probably the best way we can measure it. It measures how many extremely hateful people there are that they'd commit crimes due to their hate. As for the criteria of the statistics it was the FBI who collected the information, not the state governments. Same with the Canadian statistics, it was their national statistics agency which collected the information. We can argue that the stastics might not be fully accurate, but that still puts them in the same order of magntitude 2/10,000 (for U.S) and 4/10,000 (for Canada.) Even if the United States missed out on one case for every one case with respect to Canada's stasticis agency, that would just put it at the same proportions as Canada. 

But we don't know how large the discrepancy is, so we shouldn't just assume the US miss out one one case for every one case in Canada. There are a lot of variables that need to be put into account such as cross state variation in hate crime laws, cross state variation in hate crime definitions, uneven collection, under reporting, difference in hate crime definitions between federal and state levels, proportion of the amount of hate crime prevention to the amount of hate crimes, etc.

It is easy to divide a number by another number and call it a day. However, you need to look into how and why did we get these numbers.



Wonktonodi said:
sc94597 said:
Wonktonodi said:

Why should they deny homesexuals? where in their religion does it say to do such a thing? If they are taking a part that is mostly abandoned that mentions homosexuality to be a sin, yet not denying buisness to other sinners how is that being religeous? and actually no, they don't have equal rights, religion is protected under the constitution and in the state of Indiana, beign gay not so much. The law allows people of a religion to desciminate. It doesn't suddenly make it legal to descriminate against them actually.

I'm not a subscriber of any religion, let alone their particular religion so I can't say exactly, but I think the argument the bakeries had (which this law is a reaction to) was that they don't want to take part in the ceremony which they considered it sinful to do so by producing the wedding cake. It isn't like they wouldn't sell a cupcake to a gay person, they just don't want to be involved in a gay wedding (making a wedding cake is more than selling the cake, you have to prepare it for the wedding specifically, have multiple corespondences with the couple, ask questions regarding their wedding, etc, etc.) As a 5 on the kinsey scale, I think it is more wrong to sue these people or shut down their business for standing by their beliefs, even if their beliefs are hurtful, in my eyes wrong, and illogical, which I say as an athiest. 


At what point are they really following their beleifs and at what point is it just descriminating against people so they can look like they are following? How far does that business deny sevice? If they only serve members of their own religious comunity who are holding to a certain standard, I'd agree, but at that point the buisiness would probably be clearly advertised as such, but if they are willing to serve many people who don't follow their strict religious standards and only draw the line at homosexuals, I think it's fine for them to be sued.  Real and through religious convictions are very different from "lets bash the gays or deny them service to feel closer to god"

The point is, they are not denying service because the other person is a sinner, they are denying it because they believe if they partake in the ceremony it is a sin (immoral) on their own personal part as well. A more extreme analogy of this, which isn't exactly the same thing (no analogies are), is whether or not a doctor will give an abortion after a certain trimester in states where such abortions are legal. Many doctors will refuse to give an abortion after say the first trimester, not because it is illegal in their state, but because they don't want to morally. Should these doctors be forced to treat all pregnant woman the same, and enact the abortion? Should they lose their license if they refuse? Another more close to the point analogy is the question of whether or not a minister will perform a gay wedding or not is discrimination. Do you think all ordained ministers should perform gay weddings? If not, then why should all wedding cake producers make wedding cakes for gay weddings? Both entities are paid to perform a task, even if it is only a tip in the minster's case. Should all church buildings be willing to have gay wedding in them as well? 

In my opinion things like this hurt the LGBT movement. They make it harder for LGBT to be accepted, and it creates a mentality of us vs. them filled with resent on the religious persons end and resent on the non-heterosexual person's end.