By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming - Game streaming is not the Future, here's why

small44 said:
bunchanumbers said:
small44 said:

And i don't think they want to lose millions of gamers too by making it streaming only


I'd argue that they would make up in that by saving costs from not having to develop console hardware. Or to ship them across the ocean. Or to stock them in stores. Or to have to print discs. Or to throw giant parties to try to build hype.

See we may see a $400 console and balk. But Console makers have spent years on developing, planning, producing, shipping, and packing these things. Not to mention working out deals with publishers for launch exclusives and cracking the whip on their own first party developers to make games in time for launch. And for what? So people can look at the works that all these people devoted a portion to their lives to and ridicule and judge it because it doesn't meet our expectations on what is 'Next Gen'.

This way there will be no need for console launches. No more wondering if a game is 'Next Gen' enough. Games will already be their best, because they won't have to worry about trying to make a game on outdated hardware.  Gamers today have done nothing but complain and demand the best possible graphics from their games, and this way developers can give it to them. We should be rejoicing at this prospect.

As a gamer we don't care about a compagny profit, a gamers want to fully own their games they want to have the choice to trade their games or give them to a friends.

I didn't see a lot of people complaning about graphics expect pc gamers they think they self superior,consoles was always outdated compared to pc and it was never a problem why it would became a problem in future.


Really? I see people arguing about face models on Xenoblade Chronicles X, Resolution in Battlefield and tons of other games, Frame rates in Resident Evil Revelations, AC:Unity and tons of other games, game textures and all sorts of other things. Almost always involving the exact same game. What is the difference? The hardware.

This goes away with game streaming. You will be able to do sharing. Steam has already shown this with their family streaming plan. Same with PS4's Shareplay. You'll be able to stream from all your devices, so it'll be at your disposal at any time. Sharing with a friend won't be a issue. If you're really wanting physical options, Nintendo and PC will be offering these options in the future.



Around the Network
spemanig said:
bunchanumbers said:

Yes. Their last consoles will be able to do this too, and after a while we'll be able to access their services through PCs, Tablets, Phones and the like. I'm pretty sure that is the end game for them. It will be pretty convenient though.


What they'll need to worry about is losing third party support via competing streaming services provided by those same companies, like Unity and Origin. EA already has a subcription model. That could spell trouble for these guys on a streaming service because they'd literally be losing titles to third party companies themselves.


Yeah. That is the only thing I'm concerned about. Ubisoft, EA, Activision and almost every other major publisher might decide to break off and form their own digital streaming state. This is why Sony and MS need to get together and come up with a unified plan. Otherwise it will be like everyone breaking off to form their own country.



bunchanumbers said:

Yeah. That is the only thing I'm concerned about. Ubisoft, EA, Activision and almost every other major publisher might decide to break off and form their own digital streaming state. This is why Sony and MS need to get together and come up with a unified plan. Otherwise it will be like everyone breaking off to form their own country.


They might fail too though. With too many options come survival of the fittest, and Sony and Microsoft most likely wouldn't go down before Origin or Unity.



Where did you get the silly idea that a Netflix server renders movies before it sends them out? Netflix servers are nothing more than service providers, and the service being accessing storage and sending the data from that storage to you. One Netflix server only servicing 20 people is laughably inefficient. The servers don't need power for that. The money is all in the network and WAN bandwidth.

Not sure about the math on the virtual gaming servers either. With the ever advancing computing power of GPUs you could probably provide multiple machines with just one specialized GPU. They will somehow make it worth, don't worry.

The real problem as you addressed is the content. Paying $60 dollars for a streamed game will not fly so they have to use subscription. Publishers will not be willing to put their games for pennies on such a service when they are making millions with directly sold copies to PC and consoles. So any game on a streaming service will probably be at least a year old which makes the whole endeavor really unattractive for a lot of people, no matter the price. I mean look at how many are already complaining about the games for PS+^^



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

I still fail to see the benefit of game streaming when downloading is an option. Downloaded titles will always run better than streams and for gaming that is a very important factor.



Around the Network

I'm sure those who's complain about that would still buy those games unless you put the same games side by side you can't tell what the difference between 30fps or 60fps.



PS4 - over 100 millions let's say 120m
Xbox One - 70m
Wii U - 25m

Vita - 15m if it will not get Final Fantasy Kingdoms Heart and Monster Hunter 20m otherwise
3DS - 80m

Intrinsic said:

 a lot of people seem to think that gaming is going to ultimately become a stream only service. Some even think this may happen as early as next gen. I am going to try and explain why I think its not possible and why I believe game streaming will not replace a dedicated gaming box anytime soon. 

First, let's look at what a game streaming business model will look like to be better or at least match dedicated consoles or PCs by 2020

 

  1. the stream should support at least 1080p/60fps
  2. the gamer will be paying for a $40-$60 game that they never download but just stream when they want to or
  3. A stream subscription service of like $10-$20/month with limited support.Games on the service will be at least 12-18 months old. 
And now, the problems (point aligned with above)
  1. Make no mistake, playing games is the single most processing heavy computer related mainstream hobby on the planet. When people think game streaming, they just think Netflix and go if movies can do it then so can games. Just not that easy. Think about it, every time you stream a game, there is a CPU and GPU somewhere that basically runs that game for you. one user per virtual console/PC. And if said virtual PC happens in 2020, then you will be talking about hardware that at least supports 4k gaming. This means that that virtual PC is going to be at least $400 per unit. Who exactly is going to pay for that? especially if the service is meant to cater to 10s or 100s of millions of people.

    To help pUt this in perspective, (just an example); one Netflix virtual PC could basically render a movie or show to about 10 users simultaneously. The base cost of that virtual box (if measured that way) will probably cost no more than $500 for every 20 people. If this were a gaming service streaming brand new games built on the latest PC hardware, we would basically be talking about one virtual box per user. ~$400 per person. 

  2. You think the idea to some of not being able to buy physical games is scary, then imagine not even owning the digital game you buy. You never have to download anything, you just stream it, but yet you pay $40-60 for that. Nope, not gonna happen. 

  3. There of course is the subscription model. But the two main issues here is that you won't be seeing brand new games on a subscription payment model. More so, a subscription payment model makes it even harder to cover the ridiculous costs associated with what would be ganmer based servers. If they have you paying $10/month but it cost them $400 for a rig that would run games just for you, it would take 3.5yrs for them to make back the cost they put in to cover one user. Obviously not everyone will be playing at the same time, but we are still talking about ridiculous costs here. 
That basically sums up what I think about this cloud gaming future. There is a reason why game streaming services usually only have older games and even with nvidias latest push to actual new fully paid for games they can afford to do that cause they probably have a growing number of extremely powerful older GPUs lying around and probably also don't realistically expect people to jump on that service in mass. 

 

You forgot 2 other, major points:

4. Bandwith: Streaming a game in Full HD will take up a lot of Bandwith, you will need at least 30mbit download speed to achieve this consistently, which outside of Japan and South Corea very few people really have (and have access to). And for 4k you'll need even more than 100mbit downstream, which is still very rare and very expensive.

5. Ping: NVidias Shield achieved a delay of just 150ms input-to-output, which is pretty good. But in order to achieve this, they had a ping of just 15ms (one way, so 30ms for both transfers), a number such low virtually nobody will ever achieve. With a more realistic Ping of 50ms, you already get a delay of almost 250ms, at which point it gets very noticable.



Shadow1980 said:
bunchanumbers said:


But there won't be only one streaming service. Sony will have one, MS will have one, Nvidia will have one, OnLive will have one as well. Plus there will be others. Just like how there is Netflix, there is Amazon Prime, Hulu, HBOGO etc.

Also something you forget is that a bluray isn't dependent on the power of the hardware. Or rather, that the cost to make a bluray run is negligible. Its not like that with games. Its why it will be dependent on streaming more than ever. This goes back to the hardware development costs that console makers wouldn't want to pay again.

But there will be options, like you said. If you don't like PSNow, Rio, GriD, or OnLive, there will always be PC and Nintendo who will provide physical game options.

Re: First bolded. That's not what I meant by choice. I don't mean choice of subscription services. I mean choice to buy a disc, and actual physical product that I own forever. If I don't have that choice, then I'm not interested, and I think the vast majority of console gamers feel the same way. The "ownership culture" made itself heard loud and clear back in spring 2013.

Re: Second bolded. If Nintendo is the only one still providing physical, they'll be the only one relevant in the market. Mark my words: the first console maker to pull the trigger on digital-only is going the way of Sega. Digital-only isn't happening. Period. Neither the demand nor the infrastructure is there.


MS made a mistake in that they tried to do a hybrid version of digital with a disc drive in the X1, along with physical console specs. MS should have went full streaming or full physical. If it was full streaming, they wouldn't be faced with the limitations of the X1 hardware. They would have the best versions of all 3rd party games and their first party games would look extraordinary and at 1080p and 60 fps. But the infrastructure wasn't ready for it yet.

And yes, Nintendo will most likely be the only console maker left. But they won't end up with a monopoly on gaming either. By the time Nintendo is the only one left, most people will accept that they would rather have the prettiest version of a game that they can take wherever they want over a console with physical hardware limitations. Not to mention that most 3rd party publishers will most likely refuse to water down their games to port on a Nintendo system. So Nintendo will still be in the same boat they are in now.

Unless Nintendo agrees to carry MS, Sony, and almost every other 3rd party publishers streaming service.



vivster said:
Where did you get the silly idea that a Netflix server renders movies before it sends them out? Netflix servers are nothing more than service providers, and the service being accessing storage and sending the data from that storage to you. One Netflix server only servicing 20 people is laughably inefficient. The servers don't need power for that. The money is all in the network and WAN bandwidth.

Not sure about the math on the virtual gaming servers either. With the ever advancing computing power of GPUs you could probably provide multiple machines with just one specialized GPU. They will somehow make it worth, don't worry.

The real problem as you addressed is the content. Paying $60 dollars for a streamed game will not fly so they have to use subscription. Publishers will not be willing to put their games for pennies on such a service when they are making millions with directly sold copies to PC and consoles. So any game on a streaming service will probably be at least a year old which makes the whole endeavor really unattractive for a lot of people, no matter the price. I mean look at how many are already complaining about the games for PS+^^

I am aware that Netflix servers don't actually render the movie but rather are designed to just move data from them to you, kinda the same way YouTube doesn't render the videos you see and that it's done on your end. That's why in my post I said "as an example".



I'm almost certain it's going to happen, probably not by next generation but the generation after definitely.

Business model wise I think there'll be a mandatory small subscription ($5 a month like ps+) and then ontop of that you'll have to buy your games for the usual $60 which the publishers/developers and Sony get there usual cut of and then Sony get a small monthly fee to cover extra costs... in case for example someone buys one game and just plays that for a billion hours.

It's useless to speculate about hardware, because for one it'll be 10 years down the line and two it'll be specialized machines designed specifically for the purpose of cloud gaming and... well they haven't been designed yet.

PlayStation Now isn't just Sony's attempt at backwards compatibility. It's them looking towards the future at what gaming is going to become and getting valuable experience when it comes to cloud gaming and the infrastructure and hardware that is required. The audience you can reach without them needing to buy specialized hardware or make an initial investment on that hardware is insane. Nvidia have their own Cloud Gaming service and soon Microsoft will follow if they have any plans on the Xbox brand surviving into 2030 and beyond.