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Forums - General - Ben Stein to take on Darwinism on April 18

The Ghost of RubangB said:
kenzomatic said:
You all "fear" being wrong so much because of the implication on both sides

1 There is no god
2 There is a god

it is sad.

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

I don't fear god or the lack of a god. The possibility of a god that would let this happen doesn't even compute in my brain. If there was a god, it was either drunk or schizophrenic, or lost a bet, and had to make a pretty shitty world. Not to say that I'm not enjoying every second of my perfect life, but I'm aware that not everybody's as insanely eternally happy as I am, the poor saps.


 Or acted exactly like your average human would. I mean if I was omnipotent then the world would be approximately as fucked as it currently is.



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whatever said:
mmnin said:






I completely understand a scientists aversion to ID and creationism. Science as a whole was set back centuries in the middle ages due to the pope and his minions. Galileo was sent to rot in prison till his death for simply stating that the Earth was not the center of the universe.


There is no hint that the Pope or anyone else slow down science one bit during the Medieval times. Anyone who even played Medieval Total War would know this. One of the things that drives science is war. If there one thing Roman Empire was good at was war.

Also from what I've read from history it was Galileo's arrogance as well as belittling the wrong people (including those who support him) that got Galileo in trouble more than his idea. In fact even the church took Galileo's position before there were hard evidence to back it up.

 



Man said:

@ libellule

umm...yeah but they cant convey complex ideas. the majority of languages in other species only convey emotions.

we can convey everything including abstract ideas, ideas about time and the future.

no matter how complex a chimpanzees language is, it cannot explain to another chimp the idea of electricity (well they can if you teach them sign language, but not naturally in the wild)


==> I agree, there is a gap.

but they have language, they have memory, they are able to think, then they can learn too.

Pretty similar to us.

this is pretty similar to us. In fact, I would love to take human from different period to see what they are able to understand if we educated them FULLY from the birth :

Is the "-3Millions human" as intelligent as the "-5k" one ?

Is the -5k one as intelligent than us ? 

Am asking myself what define our capcitiy to learn, to make complex abstract concept for example, and how it has evolved in the specy.



Time to Work !

Question to creationists still participating: When asking for proof that species evolve into different species, do microbes count? For instance, if I could prove conclusively that one species of bacteria evolved into a new species of bacteria, would that be satisfactory proof that evolution is a true process that occurs?

Or am I wrong, and no one is denying that evolution of species into new species has in fact occurred?

[edit:

kazadoom said:
are you reading what you are writing? This is nonsense, it takes more faith to believe this then creation. There are so many ifs and holes in what you are saying it is crazy. You keep talking about adaptation, like bears turning white in the snow, and people getting hairier in colder climates. That is not evolution, because they are still bears, and they are still humans. There is NO evidence that species changed from one species to another on this planet.
[I guess the question is now whether anyone still participating in this thread also agrees with this.]


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libellule said:
Sqrl said:
libellule said:


@sqrl,

I doubt dolphins or any others animals species can match our "intelligence".
It is not that we are qualitatively different from them (superior mamalian possess intelligence capacity + communication system like us) but we are quantitatively so far from them.

Take a human monkey from birth. Put all the efforts u want to develope his intelligence/memory, it will never match a well educated six years old children.
In fact, I believe 95% of the human beings, including the low educated ones with low knowledge, can own The Most Intelligent Monkey of All Time.

Again, I never said Dolphins were smarter than people. I agree we are quantatatively far ahead of them, but I would point out that it is our standards of measure being used to make this assessment.

So is it really a surprise that we determine ourselves to be superior?

 

As a humerous thought, what f they were to choose the criteria? I bet we would fall a lot shorter of their criteria than they do of ours.

 

 

 

==> I also never said "smarter". I said "match"

But do you think Dolphin have a conscience of their existence as we have ?
I personnaly doubt.

do you think dolphin have a conscience of the world we are living ?
I doubt too.

do you think Dolhin will EVER ask themselve the question : do you think we are more intelligent than human ?""

I think this is what make us so different of the others species :

conscience of our self
+ conscience of our world
+ big stupid all the time question like "are we more inteligent that Dolphins ?"


As Rocketpig pointed out there is a substantial amount of evidence that they are in fact self aware. And in fact there is evidence they are also aware that other dolphins and even humans have individuality. They believe that Dolphins actually have names for themselves and other dolphins, which if true definitely shows awareness of both self and others.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article714144.ece

Some have even speculated that Dolphins have creative and artistic abilities as well:

http://www.earthtrust.org/delrings.html

And as some of you may or may not have heard they are regarded as the only other species that engages in sex for fun :

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro04/web1/eberdan.html  (note that the primary subject of this link is not recreational procreation of Dolphins, aka you might have to read a bit)

 



To Each Man, Responsibility
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@ libellule

i think weve been wondering about similar things.

ive also wondered what would happen if you could raise "primitive" humans in todays world.

ive also wondered what would happen if a modern human were raised without any language, or technology or any modern things. I would like to see if they were then at an older age able to still learn, and were still as "smart" as normal people.

curse those damn ethics commitees! lol jk.



"I'll just tackle the bolded part... The point I'm making is not that small gene pools are bad, it's that change more easily happens in smaller gene pools. After all, that's all evolution is... Change. Sometimes it can be good, most of the time it is bad. The bad dies off over time, the good flourishes. Expand the gene pool and the traits from inbreeding will disappear or diminish as dominant genes control recessive traits.

Realize that most of the time, evolution fails miserably. It is in the rare occasion that it actually works, which is why actually seeing it happen is like catching lightning in a bottle.
"

==> I think I get ur point.
I have made some biology too, just a little, just a little.

Hey ... Am I making a PhD in biology ? .... YES I AM !



Time to Work !

Don't take this the wrong way but how do you "make a PhD?"



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


ioi + 1
kenzomatic said:
Don't take this the wrong way but how do you "make a PhD?"

 He is french, thus his english isn't perfect, give the man a break.



To Each Man, Responsibility
Sqrl said:
kenzomatic said:
Don't take this the wrong way but how do you "make a PhD?"

 He is french, thus his english isn't perfect, give the man a break.


Did not know thank you, I apologize for asking.



"Back off, man. I'm a scientist."

Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You are a poor scientist. Especially if you think the moon landing was faked.


ioi + 1