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Forums - Politics - Can everyone agree that White American police officers are above the law? - No indictment in Garner case......

Absolutely discusting that these things are possible in a "developed" country like the United States.



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KLAMarine said:
Materia-Blade said:

of course, it's called justice. don't you agree people who treat life lowly should get punished? those around him were a part of the murder, since they ganged up on him and didn't stop when he started choking.

There is such a thing as serving time in prison, you don't have to automatically resort to the taking away of life. You were awfully quick to jump to the act of hanging.

Materia-Blade said:
KLAMarine said:

Funny, I don't recall blaming the victim. An accident by definition doesn't have active perpetrators.

I agree, but this was no accident.

So were the officers aware of Garner's health problems? If they were aware excessive force could have killed Garner then yes, this was not an accident. If they weren't aware then this was in fact an accident. For all we know, Garner himself might not have been aware of his own health problems.

taking away life seems the perfect punishment for those who take life away.

who's talking about health problems? what they did was absurd and illegal, it doesn't matter if the victim is healthy or not.



SocialistSlayer said:
-CraZed- said:
No we cannot agree about that.

However, we can agree that the case in New York is a travesty. Anyone who has seen that video has to see how overly aggressive that arrest was. It looked like a pack of hyenas jumping on a wildebeest on the Discovery Channel. Yes, he was refusing to comply with their demands but the officers escalated the encounter with overly aggressive force.

While I do not think they (the cops) intended on hurting or killing him and it wasn't racially motivated they acted negligent and all of the officers involved should face some sort of disciplinary actions. But the officer who actually drug him down buy his neck should have been indicted for negligent/involuntary manslaughter. They know the choke hold is a prohibited technique in taking down a suspect and more so since this guy wasn't acting aggressive or physically threatening in any way.

If the DA doesn't step up and pursue charges then I surely hope the citizens of New York are ready for their tax revenue to go to a very large wrongful death suit. Hell, even if he does and the officer is found guilty in a trial, they'll probably still get a nice settlement from NY.

The other tragedy of this case is that people are already trying to link this to Ferguson as if the two situations are even comparable other than the race of the individuals involved. Which had no bearing on either case. And it gave more fodder to the race baiting hucksters' raucous rhetoric about how this country is a seething pit of deeply seeded racism.

Furthermore, I think this is what happens when you have a nanny state. And New York is a nanny state. New York has made illegal the resale of individual cigarettes because they aren't taxed. How effing ridiculous. There are so many laws in New York and frankly all around the country no one can assuredly know them all and most of us will just as assuredly if inadvertently break one of these laws at any given moment. We have gone so far overboard that grown men die over being arrested for selling a cigarette because the state wants to tax them to the point that they are so expensive that it creates a black market for them.

TL;DR: No this doesn't mean White police officers are above the law but it is a travesty of justice, the case hurts race relations in America and we have too many damned laws!


awesome post, except one small thing, the type of "choke hold" the officer used wasnt prohibited, as it was not the type that restricts oxygen but rather blood flow.

and to add, it. in 2013 mayor nanny bloomberg implement new penelties for selling untaxed cigerettes, and the nypd police chief ordered police to crack down on these illegal cigerettes. so encroaching government and stupid laws are largely to blame

give up, they straight up attacked the non agressive man. it could be done by a cop or a hobo and it would be the same.



I'm also not happy with policemen in Germany. They don't seem to have as many right as in USA or so but they still can act like assholes and you can't do much.

Once I got pepper spray in my eyes and I did absolutely nothing. The officer just thought about another guy "ohh, there is a drunken guy doing shit let's spray it directly in the faces of 10 people even if they are just in the same room". And with "directly" I mean aimed at all of us, not just accidentally.

Wonder what would happen if I would spray an officer some pepper spray in the face if someone else in the room would do shit^^



Don't sugar coat a choke hold when it kills you from stopping airflow to the lungs by calling it a "submission hold" or "head lock"



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SocialistSlayer said:
-CraZed- said:
No we cannot agree about that.

However, we can agree that the case in New York is a travesty. Anyone who has seen that video has to see how overly aggressive that arrest was. It looked like a pack of hyenas jumping on a wildebeest on the Discovery Channel. Yes, he was refusing to comply with their demands but the officers escalated the encounter with overly aggressive force.

While I do not think they (the cops) intended on hurting or killing him and it wasn't racially motivated they acted negligent and all of the officers involved should face some sort of disciplinary actions. But the officer who actually drug him down buy his neck should have been indicted for negligent/involuntary manslaughter. They know the choke hold is a prohibited technique in taking down a suspect and more so since this guy wasn't acting aggressive or physically threatening in any way.

If the DA doesn't step up and pursue charges then I surely hope the citizens of New York are ready for their tax revenue to go to a very large wrongful death suit. Hell, even if he does and the officer is found guilty in a trial, they'll probably still get a nice settlement from NY.

The other tragedy of this case is that people are already trying to link this to Ferguson as if the two situations are even comparable other than the race of the individuals involved. Which had no bearing on either case. And it gave more fodder to the race baiting hucksters' raucous rhetoric about how this country is a seething pit of deeply seeded racism.

Furthermore, I think this is what happens when you have a nanny state. And New York is a nanny state. New York has made illegal the resale of individual cigarettes because they aren't taxed. How effing ridiculous. There are so many laws in New York and frankly all around the country no one can assuredly know them all and most of us will just as assuredly if inadvertently break one of these laws at any given moment. We have gone so far overboard that grown men die over being arrested for selling a cigarette because the state wants to tax them to the point that they are so expensive that it creates a black market for them.

TL;DR: No this doesn't mean White police officers are above the law but it is a travesty of justice, the case hurts race relations in America and we have too many damned laws!


awesome post, except one small thing, the type of "choke hold" the officer used wasnt prohibited, as it was not the type that restricts oxygen but rather blood flow.

and to add, it. in 2013 mayor nanny bloomberg implement new penelties for selling untaxed cigerettes, and the nypd police chief ordered police to crack down on these illegal cigerettes. so encroaching government and stupid laws are largely to blame

It absolutely was phrohitied. He wrapped his arm directly around the man's neck and proceeded to lock his arm in place, rode him to the ground and did not let go until he was on the ground in the prone and even then he placed his upper body weight onto the man's head onto the pavement. You can even hear in his voice an almost seal like barking sound when he first tries to tell thim he cannot breathe. It is called stridor and is a sign of an acute choking or severe narrowing of the upper airway.  For someone with an overreactive airway as in asthma, occluding or causing even temporary trauma to the airway can lead to laryngospasms and ultimately to death.

And if you are correct in that one is okay over the other (which i have no reason to doubt) that is just rather ridiculous for several reasons.

No.1 the anatomy of the neck is such that the airway and surrounding blood vessels are in such close proximity that occluding one can and usually does occlude the other. For example in CPR or ACLS training you are taught to check the carotid pulse (the artery in the neck) on the side you are on so as to not inadvertently narrow the victims airway. Now, if just pressing two fingers onto someones neck can cause a narrowing of the larynx (and it can) what do you think an entire arm would do?

No.2 Occluding either the airway or the blood vessels "restrict" oxygen.

No.3 If an officer is not competent enough (which they aren't and shouldn't be required to be) to recognize when a person is truly in respiratory distress while they are in his/her custody and get them immediate medical attention (which probably could have saved his life and we wouldn't be talking about this today) then they shouldn't be restricting blood flow or oxygen!



BMaker11 said:
SocialistSlayer said:
BMaker11 said:
DrDoomz said:
SocialistSlayer said:

legally, it is not defined as a choke hold defined by the NYPD as “any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.”.

the autopsy showed no damage to the wind pipe or neck bone, and the man did not die of asypyxiation.

he applied a submission hold, which is allowed.

and like i said homicide, in this context, it is not a legal term but a medical one, meaning death by the hand of another. dont confuse medical parlance with legal terms

From what I'm reading, a blood restriction hold is still cosnidered a "choke hold" as it "chokes" the blood flow. Also, from what I'm reading, in order for a "lateral vascular neck restraint" shouldn't it require the crook of the elbow be positioned over the mid of the neck (to prevent it becoming an air choke)? In this case, if you look at the videos, the crook of his elbow was definitely positioned to the side of the neck and his wrist was placed firmly where the throat is.

http://i.imgur.com/2BrlwwI.png

And, even with the semantics of "choke hold" vs "submission hold"...the technique the officer used is illegal/prohibited by the NYPD! The officer shouldn't have done it in the first place. There's no way around it. The officer killed that man. And he got away with it


its  not semantics, when one hold is perfectly allowed by the nypd, while the other has been banned since like 1993.

was it the officer or his bad health that killed him?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/03/eric-garner-family_n_6265792.html

"Garner, a Staten Island man who had asthma, died on July 17 after Officer Daniel Pantaleo placed him in a prohibited police chokehold during an arrest"

 

http://rt.com/usa/211203-garner-chokehold-grand-jury-decision/

The city’s medical examiner ruled Garner died as a result of the chokehold – a move which is banned by the NYPD – and declared his death a homicide

 

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/12/03/3598919/breaking-grand-jury-wont-charge-cop-who-killed-eric-garner-with-illegal-chokehold/

A grand jury voted not to file any charges against David Pantaleo, the New York Police Department cop who took the life of Eric Garner after putting him in a chokehold — a maneuver banned by the police department.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/04/nyregion/grand-jury-said-to-bring-no-charges-in-staten-island-chokehold-death-of-eric-garner.html?_r=0

An autopsy by the city’s medical examiner found that Mr. Garner’s death was a homicide resulting from the chokehold — a maneuver banned by the Police Department in 1993 — and the compression of his chest by police officers.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nypd-eric-garner-chokehold-death-not-indicted-article-1.2031841

Garner, a 43-year-old father of six, was killed when Pantaleo subdued him with a banned chokehold.

 

 

 Shall I keep going?

sure ccontinue posting false reporting. i dont care.

coroner stated there was no damage to the throat, but there was hemeraging on the sides of the neck wear the arteries are at

The “Chokehold.” At issue in this case is the so-called “chokehold” used by Pantaleo. Chokeholds have been banned by the NYPD entirely since 1993; chokeholds are typically defined as holds that prevent people from breathing. Thanks to the video showing Garner stating that he cannot breathe, many pundits have wrongly suggested that Pantaleo was “choking” Garner by depriving him of air from his windpipe. Bratton himself suggested that Pantaleo used a “chokehold,” which is defined by the NYPD as “any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.”

Thatdoes not appear to have been the case. Garner did not die of asphyxiation, as the head of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association noted at the time. The preliminary autopsy showed no damage to Garner’s windpipe or neck bones.

 So what was Pantaleo doing? He was applying a submission hold, which is not barred by the NYPD, and is designed to deprive the brain of oxygen by stopping blood flow through the arteries. So say the experts on submission holds



 

-CraZed- said:
SocialistSlayer said:
-CraZed- said:
No we cannot agree about that.

However, we can agree that the case in New York is a travesty. Anyone who has seen that video has to see how overly aggressive that arrest was. It looked like a pack of hyenas jumping on a wildebeest on the Discovery Channel. Yes, he was refusing to comply with their demands but the officers escalated the encounter with overly aggressive force.

While I do not think they (the cops) intended on hurting or killing him and it wasn't racially motivated they acted negligent and all of the officers involved should face some sort of disciplinary actions. But the officer who actually drug him down buy his neck should have been indicted for negligent/involuntary manslaughter. They know the choke hold is a prohibited technique in taking down a suspect and more so since this guy wasn't acting aggressive or physically threatening in any way.

If the DA doesn't step up and pursue charges then I surely hope the citizens of New York are ready for their tax revenue to go to a very large wrongful death suit. Hell, even if he does and the officer is found guilty in a trial, they'll probably still get a nice settlement from NY.

The other tragedy of this case is that people are already trying to link this to Ferguson as if the two situations are even comparable other than the race of the individuals involved. Which had no bearing on either case. And it gave more fodder to the race baiting hucksters' raucous rhetoric about how this country is a seething pit of deeply seeded racism.

Furthermore, I think this is what happens when you have a nanny state. And New York is a nanny state. New York has made illegal the resale of individual cigarettes because they aren't taxed. How effing ridiculous. There are so many laws in New York and frankly all around the country no one can assuredly know them all and most of us will just as assuredly if inadvertently break one of these laws at any given moment. We have gone so far overboard that grown men die over being arrested for selling a cigarette because the state wants to tax them to the point that they are so expensive that it creates a black market for them.

TL;DR: No this doesn't mean White police officers are above the law but it is a travesty of justice, the case hurts race relations in America and we have too many damned laws!


awesome post, except one small thing, the type of "choke hold" the officer used wasnt prohibited, as it was not the type that restricts oxygen but rather blood flow.

and to add, it. in 2013 mayor nanny bloomberg implement new penelties for selling untaxed cigerettes, and the nypd police chief ordered police to crack down on these illegal cigerettes. so encroaching government and stupid laws are largely to blame

It absolutely was phrohitied. He wrapped his arm directly around the man's neck and proceeded to lock his arm in place, rode him to the ground and did not let go until he was on the ground in the prone and even then he placed his upper body weight onto the man's head onto the pavement. You can even hear in his voice an almost seal like barking sound when he first tries to tell thim he cannot breathe. It is called stridor and is a sign of an acute choking or severe narrowing of the upper airway.  For someone with an overreactive airway as in asthma, occluding or causing even temporary trauma to the airway can lead to laryngospasms and ultimately to death.

And if you are correct in that one is okay over the other (which i have no reason to doubt) that is just rather ridiculous for several reasons.

No.1 the anatomy of the neck is such that the airway and surrounding blood vessels are in such close proximity that occluding one can and usually does occlude the other. For example in CPR or ACLS training you are taught to check the carotid pulse (the artery in the neck) on the side you are on so as to not inadvertently narrow the victims airway. Now, if just pressing two fingers onto someones neck can cause a narrowing of the larynx (and it can) what do you think an entire arm would do?

No.2 Occluding either the airway or the blood vessels "restrict" oxygen.

No.3 If an officer is not competent enough (which they aren't and shouldn't be required to be) to recognize when a person is truly in respiratory distress while they are in his/her custody and get them immediate medical attention (which probably could have saved his life and we wouldn't be talking about this today) then they shouldn't be restricting blood flow or oxygen!

well i guess we will have to agree to disagree

The “Chokehold.” At issue in this case is the so-called “chokehold” used by Pantaleo. Chokeholds have been banned by the NYPD entirely since 1993; chokeholds are typically defined as holds that prevent people from breathing. Thanks to the video showing Garner stating that he cannot breathe, many pundits have wrongly suggested that Pantaleo was “choking” Garner by depriving him of air from his windpipe. Bratton himself suggested that Pantaleo used a “chokehold,” which is defined by the NYPD as “any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.”

 

 

That does not appear to have been the case. Garner did not die of asphyxiation, as the head of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association noted at the time. The preliminary autopsy showed no damage to Garner’s windpipe or neck bones.

 

 

So what was Pantaleo doing? He was applying a submission hold, which is not barred by the NYPD, and is designed to deprive the brain of oxygen by stopping blood flow through the arteries. So say the experts on submission holds.



 

SocialistSlayer said:

sure ccontinue posting false reporting. i dont care.

coroner stated there was no damage to the throat, but there was hemeraging on the sides of the neck wear the arteries are at

The “Chokehold.” At issue in this case is the so-called “chokehold” used by Pantaleo. Chokeholds have been banned by the NYPD entirely since 1993; chokeholds are typically defined as holds that prevent people from breathing. Thanks to the video showing Garner stating that he cannot breathe, many pundits have wrongly suggested that Pantaleo was “choking” Garner by depriving him of air from his windpipe. Bratton himself suggested that Pantaleo used a “chokehold,” which is defined by the NYPD as “any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.”

Thatdoes not appear to have been the case. Garner did not die of asphyxiation, as the head of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association noted at the time. The preliminary autopsy showed no damage to Garner’s windpipe or neck bones.

 So what was Pantaleo doing? He was applying a submission hold, which is not barred by the NYPD, and is designed to deprive the brain of oxygen by stopping blood flow through the arteries. So say the experts on submission holds

Lol, multiple reputable sources and you just brush is aside as "false reporting" because you don't agree with it. Even talking about asphyxiation, when I showed you that a murder only has to be bodily harm that results in death. And, in order to cut off someone's airway (or bloodway) you don't have to damage the windpipe (do you have to mangle a straw to prevent fluid from going through it?) And your own link from the NY Post talks about submission holds, suck as headlocks. Does this look like a headlock to you?:

A headlock locks..well...the head, not the throat, like in the above. You're not gonna say "I can't breathe" if someone puts you in a headlock. But I see there's no getting to you. I'm done here.



I wonder if there is another version of this video that isn't edited. I have watched the same video on 3 different websites. about 6 or 7 seconds after the "chokehold" is put on him, the video stops and restarts from a different perspective. During that timelapse, what happened? Was he release of the chokehold or did it persist? How long was the timelapse? If he was only chokeheld for 12-15 seconds, then you can hardly call the police involved murderers. This seems to be more of an incredible accident than murder. The problem is that even if it is an accident, that does not absolve the police of the result. Nor does it absolve the criminal from not committing the crime to begin with. No crime=No death. I do agree that there still should be some consequence for the whole thing for the police officers involved.



It is near the end of the end....