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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Is Final Fantasy too ambitious for its own good ?

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Just some thoughts. I'm kinda jumping around a bit here.

I've been playing Final Fantasy since the first one was released in North America. I consider FF8, FF10, and FF13 to be the low points in the series. Not including the online games, this means I dislike every second main Final Fantasy since Final Fantasy 7. So, going by that track record, I should love FF15. Haha.

This is due to a number of reasons, but one common theme for me is unlikable characters/story. FF10 and FF13 also share a much higher level of linearity too. But I'm really not into silly Japanese archetypes and situations. I almost turned the game off when Tidus and Yuna did that laughing bit. I couldn't stand Lightning, Snow, Hope, or Vanille. Oddly enough, the most likable character in FF13 for me is a guy who keeps a frigging chocobo in his frigging afro. Just think about that for a second.

I thought I would feel the same about Vaan based on the promotional artwork I saw in 2004, but he didn't turn out that way, and despite being the main character, he was only a minor player in the events happening throughout the game. And then you have an excellent cast of characters including Bosch, Balthier, and Fran. FF12 brought the serious back. It brought the adult back. Couple that with the ability to explore again, side quests galore, as well as great music, an actual FANTASY setting, and a different, but very enjoyable combat system (reminds me of a much more customizable Baldur's Gate or KOTOR battle system), and the game was a winner in my eyes. I look back on it very favourably. I plan on playing through it again soon.

FF13 took everything that was awesome about 12 and pissed on it. Exploration? Gone. Mature characters and writing? Gone ("moms are tough!"). You start the game not knowing what you're fighting for. And when I did find out, I didn't care. Nothing made me invested in what was happening. I just kept running towards that flashing goal on the map, fighting and running, fighting and running, wanting to be done with it. I hope Square has this out of their system and leaves this game and all its mistakes squarely in the past.

I am cautiously optimistic about FF15. The larger explorable world is a huge bonus. I just hope the characters, writing/lore, and battle system do it justice.



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From a technical perspective the whole JRPG genre has struggled with how ambitious it was.

Huge worlds with massive 50+ hour quests blew me away on SNES and PS1, but as we got to PS3 era the technical demands saw many corners cut. Towns you walk into were often replaced by menus. Traversing the world was replaced with selecting locations on a map. Also, due tot he scope most in the genre lag behind the graphical show pieces of last generation. Square's other big IP Dragon Quest last main entry IX (I don't count MMOs) came out last gen on the DS. Final Fantasy alone demands to be the show piece technically of the genre meaning development cycles grow, delays happen, and we get sequels using existing assets.

I think many JRPGs just said, "Look, we're AA now as the market cannot support a JRPG with the ambition of the genre and the visuals of an Uncharted...unless you're Final Fantasy."



Xxain said:
VXIII said:
Xxain said:
Ok.

I do have to say though, your perception of what the"forced main cast" did for the world/story of FF12 is ironic. The choice to present the main cast as just simple, non special, non directly related to main villian, actually strengthens the world and story lore. FF12 focused on world events themselves as the main character not singular direct events(cloud,sephiroth,shinra). FF12 has the richest lore of Any FF minus the MMO's wether you like it or not.

Vaan wasn't supposed to be a thing until a later stage into development, he was forced into the story, so is the girl which I forgot her name. The important characters were not the main focus and the other almost had no personality to appreciate or remember. The lore was great, I agree.

----

Edited the title for a better understanding what I'm trying to say.

Im aware of development switchup. Everybody is. I dont think you understand though., the choice NOT focus on main cast mzde the story and world lore STRONGER not weaker as you stated originally. FF12 was all about world events/mythology/struggle. 


I respectfully diagree.

The story and world get stronger by being discovered through interesting and well defined characters. Choosing to focus on the world is fine, but the main character was nobody while he could have been an mean to explore the lore and the story better. Do explain to me how the world would be "weaker" by having well written characters (that don't have to be the main focus of the story / lore). 



Square Enix tries to hard to make Final Fantasy into greatness ...



VXIII said:
Xxain said:
VXIII said:
Xxain said:
Ok.

I do have to say though, your perception of what the"forced main cast" did for the world/story of FF12 is ironic. The choice to present the main cast as just simple, non special, non directly related to main villian, actually strengthens the world and story lore. FF12 focused on world events themselves as the main character not singular direct events(cloud,sephiroth,shinra). FF12 has the richest lore of Any FF minus the MMO's wether you like it or not.

Vaan wasn't supposed to be a thing until a later stage into development, he was forced into the story, so is the girl which I forgot her name. The important characters were not the main focus and the other almost had no personality to appreciate or remember. The lore was great, I agree.

----

Edited the title for a better understanding what I'm trying to say.

Im aware of development switchup. Everybody is. I dont think you understand though., the choice NOT focus on main cast mzde the story and world lore STRONGER not weaker as you stated originally. FF12 was all about world events/mythology/struggle. 


I respectfully diagree.

The story and world get stronger by being discovered through interesting and well defined characters. Choosing to focus on the world is fine, but the main character was nobody while he could have been an mean to explore the lore and the story better. Do explain to me how the world would be "weaker" by having well written characters (that don't have to be the main focus of the story / lore). 

I was wondering the same thing.

OT: That's one way to look at it. The other is that SE have botched up the development of Final Fantasy for most of the last gen. Other publishers have managed to develop huge, ambitious titles that are still true to their roots. Final Fantasy isn't among them.



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VXIII said:
Xxain said:
VXIII said:
Xxain said:
Ok.

I do have to say though, your perception of what the"forced main cast" did for the world/story of FF12 is ironic. The choice to present the main cast as just simple, non special, non directly related to main villian, actually strengthens the world and story lore. FF12 focused on world events themselves as the main character not singular direct events(cloud,sephiroth,shinra). FF12 has the richest lore of Any FF minus the MMO's wether you like it or not.

Vaan wasn't supposed to be a thing until a later stage into development, he was forced into the story, so is the girl which I forgot her name. The important characters were not the main focus and the other almost had no personality to appreciate or remember. The lore was great, I agree.

----

Edited the title for a better understanding what I'm trying to say.

Im aware of development switchup. Everybody is. I dont think you understand though., the choice NOT focus on main cast mzde the story and world lore STRONGER not weaker as you stated originally. FF12 was all about world events/mythology/struggle. 


I respectfully diagree.

The story and world get stronger by being discovered through interesting and well defined characters. Choosing to focus on the world is fine, but the main character was nobody while he could have been an mean to explore the lore and the story better. Do explain to me how the world would be "weaker" by having well written characters (that don't have to be the main focus of the story / lore). 


Im only responding to the fact that you said that story and world were weak due to not having a well written cast or whatever. That is not true. I dont care for Ivalice that much, but if FF12 got anything right the world history/mythology is it. FF12 has the most fleshed out world of Any non MMO FF regardless how you feel the characters ended. FF12 was NOT about the characters all, so little in fact it was stated by SE themselves their was no singular main character. I find ironic that this is respecting/appreciating the ambition behind every FF even if it ends not being your cup tea.... Then you go right ahead and downplay FF12 like that. FF12 has a fantastic world and more down to earth realistic story, the MOST realistic, of any FF game. 



Xxain said:
VXIII said:
Xxain said

I respectfully diagree.

The story and world get stronger by being discovered through interesting and well defined characters. Choosing to focus on the world is fine, but the main character was nobody while he could have been an mean to explore the lore and the story better. Do explain to me how the world would be "weaker" by having well written characters (that don't have to be the main focus of the story / lore). 


Im only responding to the fact that you said that story and world were weak due to not having a well written cast or whatever. That is not true. I dont care for Ivalice that much, but if FF12 got anything right the world history/mythology is it. FF12 has the most fleshed out world of Any non MMO FF regardless how you feel the characters ended. FF12 was NOT about the characters all, so little in fact it was stated by SE themselves their was no singular main character. I find ironic that this is respecting/appreciating the ambition behind every FF even if it ends not being your cup tea.... Then you go right ahead and downplay FF12 like that. FF12 has a fantastic world and more down to earth realistic story, the MOST realistic, of any FF game. 

That doesn't answer my question though. I didn't say the story was terrible or something I only said that the cast greatly weakened the story and the world in general. Better characters would have made the game much, much more interesting. I appreciate the ambition indeed, but I see none in the way XII characters were handled. You just read too much into it, I don't downplay, I'm only expressing my opinion of what I find to be weakness.



Augen said:
From a technical perspective the whole JRPG genre has struggled with how ambitious it was.

Huge worlds with massive 50+ hour quests blew me away on SNES and PS1, but as we got to PS3 era the technical demands saw many corners cut. Towns you walk into were often replaced by menus. Traversing the world was replaced with selecting locations on a map. Also, due tot he scope most in the genre lag behind the graphical show pieces of last generation. Square's other big IP Dragon Quest last main entry IX (I don't count MMOs) came out last gen on the DS. Final Fantasy alone demands to be the show piece technically of the genre meaning development cycles grow, delays happen, and we get sequels using existing assets.

I think many JRPGs just said, "Look, we're AA now as the market cannot support a JRPG with the ambition of the genre and the visuals of an Uncharted...unless you're Final Fantasy."

Unfortunately, That is exactly how I feel too, RPGs took the back seat last generation. Still some "AA" franchises like tales managed to keep a decent fan base. I think Final Fantasy is the only ambitious JRPG left, hopefully the upcoming game will sell good enough to justify that.



I think this episode of jimquisition puts forth an interesting take on the subject

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DGSR7ZY_sU

I haven't played enough final fantasy to have a valid opinion on the subject



I'm not convinced that it's a question of ambition. Recent FFs just seems like overblown, poorly-managed vanity projects. They're no longer doing groundbreaking, trend-setting games. They're just bringing in directors to come in and design whatever they think is cool, throw "innovation" at a wall and hope it sticks, and then just scrap and start over again next time.

- FFX took the battle system back to the NES days by dropping ATB, but it worked well enough. The sphere grid was a good idea, but too easy to max and make ridiculously OP characters. But the characters were awful and designs were repulsive (thanks Nomura). The story was a decent 3 hour story stretched to 30 and soap opera'd like no one's business.

- FFXII was an improvement in every way. It seemed like Final Fantasy was back on track. Ivalice has a totally different feel to it than other Final Fantasy experiences, but in a good way. The characters took a back seat to story and lore, but that's fine with me. Lord of the Rings did it too and I have no complaints.

- FFXIII was back to being a terrible story with awful characters and terrible designs. Then the paradigm system streamlined and watered a 20 year old job system down to 6 classes that all perform 1 very specific task. There's no complexity or nuances to it. It's simple enough to win the game with auto-battle. The game is just a bad TV show with a brain-dead battle system.

- FFXV seems to be Xenoblade with a more powerful engine and Nomura's trademark awful character designs. We'll see how it goes, I guess. Bishounen Fantasy may turn out OK, 10 years and 100 million dollars into development.

I don't know why Square Enix has gone from setting industry standards to being obsessed with glorified tech demos.  FFIV was one of the most influential RPGs ever made. It was years ahead of its time and a game changer. Almost every JRPG since has been influenced in some way by it. But now it's been 5 years since FFXIII and the only game it influenced was FFXIII-2. Sakaguchi may have sold his soul with Spirits Within, but the games just haven't been the same without him and Uematsu.

The best Final Fantasy games in the last 10 years were The Last Story and Bravely Default.