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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Who would win a fight? The Super Smash Bros or the PlayStation All-Stars?

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WHO IS GUNNA WIN?!?!?!?

SUPA SMASHA BRODERS! 776 75.78%
 
PLAYSTATION ALL-STAS BATTA ROYALE! 247 24.12%
 
Total:1,023
Teeqoz on 28 September 2014
Clyde32 said:
Teeqoz said:

Again, Ratchet's shield (which he could easily activate before the fight), protects him from Sonic, and the moment Sonic even approaches him, Sonic will be hit by electricity, so everyone standing close to Ratchet would also be protected from Sonic.

Oh boy. You see, when we're debating about videogame characters, and they're abilities, then you can't use real life logic to counter it. Weapons in video games don't normally damage the environments as they should. Would you also say that Sonic can't run at lightspeed vecause that's impossible in real life? Or that Samus doesn't have nukes, because they don't destroy the entire area?

Samus's weapons are easily capable of vaporizing? That's good to here, certainly helps my case. Doesn't matter what suit she uses, because it would vaporize along with her. Samus can't hurt Ratchet because of his shield, and in 1 second the Groovitron will have activated and makes her dance.

Oh, I just remembered, Ratchet could use the mega leech bomb and literally suck the life out of the enemies.

The problem with ratchets weapons is you'd have to hit the characters for them to work. Good luck.

 

Also, Samus' nukes do destroy everything. The Super Missile shakes the screen whenever it is fired, the powerbomb disintegrates everything in the room, the speed booster goes through everything and the hyper beam literally destroys anything in its path. 


Ratchet has weapons that autolocks.

 

disintegrating everything in the room is hardly what a nuke would do. Call me when it disintegrates the room itself.



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Qute on 28 September 2014
Teeqoz said:
Qute said:
Teeqoz said:

Qute said:

 The fact that the fate of threads is destroyed and the fact that it's a location. Not a weapon. If we do that, we allow locations for Nintendo characters to use.

Kratos used the power of pandora to save the world, not kill Zeus. Did you also ignore the point that if Athena didn't interveine in GoW2, Kratos would have killed Zeus without Pandora

Sonic moves at mach 5 to lightspeed, he can literally speed blitz the entire roster of PS-AS before they can think. This means that Sonic can kill them before they do anything at all. I think you ignored his speed. The groovitron will do nothing if it's too slow.

Jak's weapon is called a supernova. It's just a name. If it was truly a super nova, the planet would be destroyed, along with several others. Yet, we don't see this anywhere. Furthermore, Samus has the sunburst so it's irrelevant. Nevermind that Samus with the speed booster is faster than anyone in PS-AllStars. She can splatter them with her speed before they even think. Also, Rosalina can protect anyone from universe busting attacks or less.

 Samus's weapons are easily capable of vaporizing and she can tank this with the Varia suit. This is ignoring her gravity suit and the other suits. I never ignored your counters. Really Ratchet would be doing nothing because he's too slow. Samus, as I said before, moves at mach 1.2 to mach 5(Sonic moves at mach 5 to lightspeed so you need to factor him) with her speed booster. She can literally paste the other team before they can think. She curbstomps Ratchet.


Again, Ratchet's shield (which he could easily activate before the fight), protects him from Sonic, and the moment Sonic even approaches him, Sonic will be hit by electricity, so everyone standing close to Ratchet would also be protected from Sonic.

Oh boy. You see, when we're debating about videogame characters, and they're abilities, then you can't use real life logic to counter it. Weapons in video games don't normally damage the environments as they should. Would you also say that Sonic can't run at lightspeed vecause that's impossible in real life? Or that Samus doesn't have nukes, because they don't destroy the entire area?

Samus's weapons are easily capable of vaporizing? That's good to here, certainly helps my case. Doesn't matter what suit she uses, because it would vaporize along with her. Samus can't hurt Ratchet because of his shield, and in 1 second the Groovitron will have activated and makes her dance.

Oh, I just remembered, Ratchet could use the mega leech bomb and literally suck the life out of the enemies.


Except Sonic would still be able to hit him before he hits him.

First of all, you claimed that the weapon shoots supernovas. I countered it saying that it should destroy planets. The only proof you have that it's a supernova is that his weapon is called by that name I never said it was impossible. I said they can't do it. Kirby also has a move called supernova, and it doesn't have super nova qualities. Furthermore, the Descriptions of their abilities say that Samus can shoot nukes or Sonic can run at mach 5 can do this. Whether this is in the manual or in-game data.

Doh, meant to say her powebomb easily vaporizes others. This does no damage to Samus and she can even heal from it.  The point about her speed is that she can kill Ratchet before he does anything. As well as Sonic. I don't think you guys understand, mach 5 is about 1701m/s. Unless they're really far, they can be speed blitzed before they do anything. In a second, Sonic can go as far as 1701m or 1.701km. Anything less, Sonic can paste him before they do anything. If any action takes a second, Sonic would already be there. Of course, this is assuming he goes mach 5 instead of higher speeds.

Samus literally faced life sucking enemies called Metroids. Nothing new.


Sonic wouldn't be able to hit Ratchet because of his god damn shield! I've been trying to tell you this for hours now!

Okay, you're right, I have no way of proving that it's a supernova, and you have no way of disproving it. The fact that it doesn't blow up the entire planet is because it's a video game. A nuke would destroy a city, yet Samus's nukes doesn't, right?

for tge third or fourth or fifth time, Samus would be forced to dance due to Groovitron. By the way, Ratchet has plenty of weapons that autolocks onto enemies, so he could also use that against Samus.

I'm fully aware of how fast mach 5 is, but that doesn't help Sonic, the moment he comes close to Ratchet he will be shocked by Ratchet's shield.


That shield would do nothing since Sonic would be invulnerable in his super form.

Actually, there's proof that Samus's omega cannon shoots nukes. Since there's gamma radiation emitting from it. Nukes are the only weapons that emit gamma radiation from their explosion and her ship's scan data says so.

For the fourth or fifth time, Samus is too fast for that to even happen. Samus would ram into Ratchet way before he activates it due to her speed. Furthermore, what's preventing Samus's allies to shoot the groovitron while she's shooting nukes at super sonic speeds?

Sonic would be invulnerable in Super form, so the shield woudn't do anything to him.



Being alone, is my greatest fear.

Qute on 28 September 2014
Teeqoz said:
Clyde32 said:
Teeqoz said:

Again, Ratchet's shield (which he could easily activate before the fight), protects him from Sonic, and the moment Sonic even approaches him, Sonic will be hit by electricity, so everyone standing close to Ratchet would also be protected from Sonic.

Oh boy. You see, when we're debating about videogame characters, and they're abilities, then you can't use real life logic to counter it. Weapons in video games don't normally damage the environments as they should. Would you also say that Sonic can't run at lightspeed vecause that's impossible in real life? Or that Samus doesn't have nukes, because they don't destroy the entire area?

Samus's weapons are easily capable of vaporizing? That's good to here, certainly helps my case. Doesn't matter what suit she uses, because it would vaporize along with her. Samus can't hurt Ratchet because of his shield, and in 1 second the Groovitron will have activated and makes her dance.

Oh, I just remembered, Ratchet could use the mega leech bomb and literally suck the life out of the enemies.

The problem with ratchets weapons is you'd have to hit the characters for them to work. Good luck.

 

Also, Samus' nukes do destroy everything. The Super Missile shakes the screen whenever it is fired, the powerbomb disintegrates everything in the room, the speed booster goes through everything and the hyper beam literally destroys anything in its path. 


Ratchet has weapons that autolocks.

 

disintegrating everything in the room is hardly what a nuke would do. Call me when it disintegrates the room itself.


Samus's can shoot projectiles in mid-air or use the screw attack to block energy weapons.

Those rooms are made from a mix of Bendezium and Maldium. Furthermore, in Metroid Fusion, SA-X's powerbomb, which she uses to escape easily destroys the entire quarantine bay room which wasn't made from those materials(but it was likely made from stronger material than ours). This is aside from the fact that the computer Adam Malkovich says that the same powerbomb shook the entire station(which contains several large sectors in it) This is aside from the fact that the power bombs have a vacuum which only nukes are powerful enough to have.



Being alone, is my greatest fear.

Mr_No on 28 September 2014
Qute said:
Mr_No said:

Sure the Supernova it's just a name, no? But you didn't see in the video I gave you that it wiped out all the enemies without leaving a trace. Sure, how unpractical would it be to carry a weapon that destroys a planet after one use?

As shown here, the Groovitron acts in less than a second after being thrown. Enemies bigger than samus, even main bosses, succumb to it leaving them completely exposed to any attack. Also, Ratchet can't get touched when he has his Tesla Barrier on, which activates instantly. That'll shock Sonic back and make him lose all of his coins, thus leaving him with one hit to die. Surely, Sonic and Samus will have to stop to dance even if they go at supersonic speeds. Then, he can just trap both of them with the Mag-Net Launcher just to make sure they won't escape and use his weapon of choice to explode them.

Edit: and check the Groovitron video by 7:49. If I recall correclly, Samus can curl herself into a ball and spin around on fast speeds. Not even the enemy at 7:49 is vulnerable to the Groovitron.

Kirby's crash ability is also capable of destroying all enemies on screen Name of the attack? "Supernova"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO9B20DFNiE#t=29

Yet, it doesn't destroy the planet. And the description doesn't say it's a supernova. "Kirby releases an enormous blast of energy. It's a more powerful version of the Crash Fireball." (Kirby Return to Dreamland)

Why does the groovitron really matter if the characters are way too fast to let Ratchet do it? Also, Sonic in Super form won't be affected by electricity and Samus usually takes hits from electricty that are worth multi-terrawatts. And you do know that in cutscenes, Sonic can survive hits without his rings?

Not that it matters since PS-All Stars have no counter to Shulk's monados nor the Omnipotent Triforce.

Still, Ratchet can't get touched due to his shield, which he can trigger immediately. Still, it's enough time for him to deply the Groovitron and put an end to their lives with his weapon of choice. Another thing to consider is that Ratchet weapons might deal a lot of damage that Samus can't take, and that kinda creates confusion. Do not be mislead to think that Ratchet's guns are toys due to the cartoonish look the videos have. They do deal A LOT of damage. And a specific weapon goes beyond overkill with continuous fire. Still, the Groovitron is unavoidable. It doesn't matter if the weapon in the link I just gave you doesn't do the job. The Mag-Net Cannon, which entraps large enemies on magnetic nets, will hold them both until Ratchet activates the Rift Ripper 5000, deploying an interdimensional tentacle monster that pulls them both into another dimension and devours both Samus and Sonic.



Clyde32 on 28 September 2014
Teeqoz said:

Ratchet has weapons that autolocks.

 

disintegrating everything in the room is hardly what a nuke would do. Call me when it disintegrates the room itself.


You ignored the rest of Samus' weaponry.

Good luck getting past Monado Speed and Monado Shield. 



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Qute on 28 September 2014
Mr_No said:
Qute said:
Mr_No said:

Sure the Supernova it's just a name, no? But you didn't see in the video I gave you that it wiped out all the enemies without leaving a trace. Sure, how unpractical would it be to carry a weapon that destroys a planet after one use?

As shown here, the Groovitron acts in less than a second after being thrown. Enemies bigger than samus, even main bosses, succumb to it leaving them completely exposed to any attack. Also, Ratchet can't get touched when he has his Tesla Barrier on, which activates instantly. That'll shock Sonic back and make him lose all of his coins, thus leaving him with one hit to die. Surely, Sonic and Samus will have to stop to dance even if they go at supersonic speeds. Then, he can just trap both of them with the Mag-Net Launcher just to make sure they won't escape and use his weapon of choice to explode them.

Edit: and check the Groovitron video by 7:49. If I recall correclly, Samus can curl herself into a ball and spin around on fast speeds. Not even the enemy at 7:49 is vulnerable to the Groovitron.

Kirby's crash ability is also capable of destroying all enemies on screen Name of the attack? "Supernova"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO9B20DFNiE#t=29

Yet, it doesn't destroy the planet. And the description doesn't say it's a supernova. "Kirby releases an enormous blast of energy. It's a more powerful version of the Crash Fireball." (Kirby Return to Dreamland)

Why does the groovitron really matter if the characters are way too fast to let Ratchet do it? Also, Sonic in Super form won't be affected by electricity and Samus usually takes hits from electricty that are worth multi-terrawatts. And you do know that in cutscenes, Sonic can survive hits without his rings?

Not that it matters since PS-All Stars have no counter to Shulk's monados nor the Omnipotent Triforce.

Still, Ratchet can't get touched due to his shield, which he can trigger immediately. Still, it's enough time for him to deply the Groovitron and put an end to their lives with his weapon of choice. Another thing to consider is that Ratchet weapons might deal a lot of damage that Samus can't take, and that kinda creates confusion. Do not be mislead to think that Ratchet's guns are toys due to the cartoonish look the videos have. They do deal A LOT of damage. And a specific weapon goes beyond overkill with continuous fire. Still, the Groovitron is unavoidable. It doesn't matter if the weapon in the link I just gave you doesn't do the job. The Mag-Net Cannon, which entraps large enemies on magnetic nets, will hold them both until Ratchet activates the Rift Ripper 5000, deploying an interdimensional tentacle monster that pulls them both into another dimension and devours both Samus and Sonic.

I don't see how that shield would protect him from someone running at super sonic speeds while shooting nukes at the same time or someone who can go at hypersonic speeds to light speeds.

I don't think you under stand. The nukes only do 200 units of damage to her varia suit. With the gravity suit, it's 100 units of damage now. With the phazon suit added into the mix, it's 20 units of damage, and with her dark suit, light suit, P.E.D. suit, and Hazard suit upgrades, etc it's less.

Also, I would like to point out that she has been shot by weaponry like this which makes a large explosion. (Note, the only reason why she dodges here is because she wants to protect her friends)

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter6/metroid_v1_ch6_06.jpg

Yet, when mulitiple shots hit Samus here. All they did was reflect back. This was in her basic powersuit. It wasn't upgraded by the varia suit nor the gravity suit.

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter3/metroid_v1_ch3_16.jpg

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter3/metroid_v1_ch3_17.jpg

If the Ryno V is really that dangerous, she can just destroy all the shots fired towards her via the power bomb. And she's not going to run out of powerbombs soon.

I'm aware that the gravitron is unavoidable, but you would have to be aware of that

a) As I said before, Samus going at super sonic speeds would be too fast for Ratchet. 343m/s at minimum and about 1700m/s at max. She would be too fast for Ratchet to see, let alone hit.

b) The groovitron has limited range. So, using the shinespark technique, she can avoid the range of the groovitron

c) Her allies can shoot the thing

I don't think the mag-net would entrap her if she can easily rip through some durable metal and lift above 20 metric tons. Sonic can just teleport out of it via chaos control

Also,  why can't Samus do the same thing back to Ratchet with the Darkburst against the Rift Ripper 5000? The darkburst is a portal that rips people into oblivion while sending them into a dark dimension. Sonic on the other hand can just teleport back.



Being alone, is my greatest fear.

MARCUSDJACKSON on 28 September 2014

Over powered Sony losee to Smash bros. Bought it.



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Mr_No on 28 September 2014
Qute said:

I don't see how that shield would protect him from someone running at super sonic speeds while shooting nukes at the same time or someone who can go at hypersonic speeds to light speeds.

I don't think you under stand. The nukes only do 200 units of damage to her varia suit. With the gravity suit, it's 100 units of damage now. With the phazon suit added into the mix, it's 20 units of damage, and with her dark suit, light suit, P.E.D. suit, and Hazard suit upgrades, etc it's less.

Also, I would like to point out that she has been shot by weaponry like this which makes a large explosion. (Note, the only reason why she dodges here is because she wants to protect her friends)

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter6/metroid_v1_ch6_06.jpg

Yet, when mulitiple shots hit Samus here. All they did was reflect back. This was in her basic powersuit. It wasn't upgraded by the varia suit nor the gravity suit.

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter3/metroid_v1_ch3_16.jpg

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter3/metroid_v1_ch3_17.jpg

If the Ryno V is really that dangerous, she can just destroy all the shots fired towards her via the power bomb. And she's not going to run out of powerbombs soon.

I'm aware that the gravitron is unavoidable, but you would have to be aware of that

a) As I said before, Samus going at super sonic speeds would be too fast for Ratchet. 343m/s at minimum and about 1700m/s at max. She would be too fast for Ratchet to see, let alone hit.

b) The groovitron has limited range. So, using the shinespark technique, she can avoid the range of the groovitron

c) Her allies can shoot the thing

I don't think the mag-net would entrap her if she can easily rip through steel and lift above 20 metric tons. Sonic can just teleport out of it via chaos control

Also,  why can't Samus do the same thing back to Ratchet with the Darkburst against the Rift Ripper 5000? The darkburst is a portal that rips people into oblivion while sending them into a dark dimension. Sonic on the other hand can just teleport back.

While Samus can achieve supersonic speeds, get away and shoot Ratchet from a large distance, the shield would still protect him. If the shield breaks, he doesn't take any more damage unless he turns it back on. Also, if Samus does want to shoot from far away, Ratchet can deploy a barrier that blocks incoming damage. And if she dares to get close to it, it'll drain her health. Sure, she had faced life-sucking Metroids, but prolongued exposure to the leeching abilities of the shield can weaken her. Also:

"The Mag-Net Launcher was a weapon that shot clusters of ionized raritanium orbs which wrapped electromagnetic nets, cleverly named mag-nets, around enemies. The nets' magnetism held them securely around their victim while the electricity paralyzed their victim until the orbs lost their electromagnetic charge. This gave the weapon's user a chance to attack the temporarily disabled enemy or to escape while the enemy was imprisoned." (R&C Wiki)

She might have all that strength, but it's not from steel the nets are made of. I doubt she can break free out of an electromagnetic web. Bigger and stronger enemies were trapped innit, and they couldn't escape after the effect worn off. That's enough time for a considerable amount of damage to her.

While the Groovitron does have a short range, Ratchet doesn't have to wait for her to dash away for him to use it. He can use it when she gets close. Sonic will have to get close and eventually succumb to it. Also, the Groovitron can't be destroyed. If it was possible, it would've happened in the game.

Also, not even Sonic nor Samus will be able to teleport back with the Rift Ripper 5000. Like I said, the gun spawns a interdimensional monster with tentacles. If they're dancing and/or trapped with the Mag-Net Launcher, the monster, Fred, can just grab them with its tentacles, drag them to the other dimension and eat them. No teleporting there.

This discussion can go on and on if you want. I've played the whole series numerous times, taking many powerful attacks by trial and error, and still survived. I gotta say that from my experience, Ratchet can defeat Samus.



Qute on 28 September 2014
Mr_No said:
Qute said:

I don't see how that shield would protect him from someone running at super sonic speeds while shooting nukes at the same time or someone who can go at hypersonic speeds to light speeds.

I don't think you under stand. The nukes only do 200 units of damage to her varia suit. With the gravity suit, it's 100 units of damage now. With the phazon suit added into the mix, it's 20 units of damage, and with her dark suit, light suit, P.E.D. suit, and Hazard suit upgrades, etc it's less.

Also, I would like to point out that she has been shot by weaponry like this which makes a large explosion. (Note, the only reason why she dodges here is because she wants to protect her friends)

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter6/metroid_v1_ch6_06.jpg

Yet, when mulitiple shots hit Samus here. All they did was reflect back. This was in her basic powersuit. It wasn't upgraded by the varia suit nor the gravity suit.

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter3/metroid_v1_ch3_16.jpg

http://metroid.retropixel.net/features/comics/metroidmanga/chapter3/metroid_v1_ch3_17.jpg

If the Ryno V is really that dangerous, she can just destroy all the shots fired towards her via the power bomb. And she's not going to run out of powerbombs soon.

I'm aware that the gravitron is unavoidable, but you would have to be aware of that

a) As I said before, Samus going at super sonic speeds would be too fast for Ratchet. 343m/s at minimum and about 1700m/s at max. She would be too fast for Ratchet to see, let alone hit.

b) The groovitron has limited range. So, using the shinespark technique, she can avoid the range of the groovitron

c) Her allies can shoot the thing

I don't think the mag-net would entrap her if she can easily rip through steel and lift above 20 metric tons. Sonic can just teleport out of it via chaos control

Also,  why can't Samus do the same thing back to Ratchet with the Darkburst against the Rift Ripper 5000? The darkburst is a portal that rips people into oblivion while sending them into a dark dimension. Sonic on the other hand can just teleport back.

While Samus can achieve supersonic speeds, get away and shoot Ratchet from a large distance, the shield would still protect him. If the shield breaks, he doesn't take any more damage unless he turns it back on. Also, if Samus does want to shoot from far away, Ratchet can deploy a barrier that blocks incoming damage. And if she dares to get close to it, it'll drain her health. Sure, she had faced life-sucking Metroids, but prolongued exposure to the leeching abilities of the shield can weaken her. Also:

"The Mag-Net Launcher was a weapon that shot clusters of ionized raritanium orbs which wrapped electromagnetic nets, cleverly named mag-nets, around enemies. The nets' magnetism held them securely around their victim while the electricity paralyzed their victim until the orbs lost their electromagnetic charge. This gave the weapon's user a chance to attack the temporarily disabled enemy or to escape while the enemy was imprisoned." (R&C Wiki)

She might have all that strength, but it's not from steel the nets are made of. I doubt she can break free out of an electromagnetic web. Bigger and stronger enemies were trapped innit, and they couldn't escape after the effect worn off. That's enough time for a considerable amount of damage to her.

While the Groovitron does have a short range, Ratchet doesn't have to wait for her to dash away for him to use it. He can use it when she gets close. Sonic will have to get close and eventually succumb to it. Also, the Groovitron can't be destroyed. If it was possible, it would've happened in the game.

Also, not even Sonic nor Samus will be able to teleport back with the Rift Ripper 5000. Like I said, the gun spawns a interdimensional monster with tentacles. If they're dancing and/or trapped with the Mag-Net Launcher, the monster, Fred, can just grab them with its tentacles, drag them to the other dimension and eat them. No teleporting there.

This discussion can go on and on if you want. I've played the whole series numerous times, taking many powerful attacks by trial and error, and still survived. I gotta say that from my experience, Ratchet can defeat Samus.

It won't weaken her majorly due to vast amount of energy tanks she has. Furthermore, if running him over and shooting nukes at the same time doesn't kill him, Samus running at supersonic speeds and shooting darkburst at point blank will send him to an alternate dimension.

Alright, then she can use the portal to get rid of the net.

Except Samus will be shooting and running at supersonic speeds. Something that Ratchet never fought or can see. Ratchet trying to use the groovitron when Samus approaches speeds that he can't comprehend. It takes one second for her to travel 343 meters(which is a longer distance than the groovitron's). How long do you think it will take to cross groovitrons short range? Ratchet has never fought on ground against someone who can reach super sonic speeds. Same goes for Sonic since he goes at a faster speed than Samus which Ratchet would need an even faster reaction time. Probably the only reason why the groovitron wasn't destroyed was because no goon ever shot at it. Do you ever see any enemy shoot at it? Even if it was indestructible, it can be frozen, its circuitry can be fried with electricity, or Dark Pit or Pit can cover it with the move Darkness while Samus can switch her visor to infrarred or x-ray and kill people while everyone is blinded by darkness.

I don't see how Fred will stop Sonic. Honestly, Sonic has faced bigger threats such as Dark Gaia, Chaos who flooded the entire world, or Solaris who was destroying the universe. Same goes with Samus who faced so many large threats. Sonic's chaos control can teleport him out of the dimension anyway as I said before.

I respectfully disagree that Ratchet would beat Samus. But lets say he somehow does. He would still be too late for Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf making the wish on the triforce or Shulk using the monado to make PS-All Stars erased from existance.



Being alone, is my greatest fear.

2Ultra on 28 September 2014

Kratos attacks.
Palutena's Divine Shield reflected the attack. (9,295,062,945,262 damage redirected)(critical)
Kratos is stunned!
Palutena casts Black Hole. Palutena double casts Mega Laser.
Sadly, Kratos' party was never seen again. Would you like to continue playing? YES NO?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yDP7KI4aRk
Icarus goddess would go easy on the mere mortals I'm sure including Kratos. :)

 

Also, Samus is definitely not goign down to Ratchet.  She has already wrecked Master Chief, using some of what was mentioned in above posts.