1. Is that your fallback for everything? Claim misrepresentation? Cheap and easy. You said that men don't get all uppity about male tropes, apparently even you don't know what point you were trying to make with that comment.

2. They are plot devices and not characters, that is why they are less signifcant than other characters, what part of that don't you get?

The way Limbaugh and Moore go about expressing their opinions is what makes them controversial. Sarkeesians videos have a dry delivery, she isn't militant, she isn't calling anyone an idiot for not agreeing with her, so again, I don't see what is so controversial.

So you don't believe that sexism exists in video games at all? And please enlighten me as to how someone "debunked" sexism in Mario.

Well GTAV was a game I was nearly typing in an earlier comment before I deleted it all. :) -

The following is not directed at you, but at the general issue as i see it.

The stripper in GTA was just a digital computer graphic doing something on screen that quite a few people do in real life (I havent I may add for reference :). GTA has always been about following real life, and in GTA's world it's acceptable. I think if you were playing Peggle and it appeared, then that would be a problem.. it would be there for the sake of it, but GTA is all about copying the seedy real life element. You play a criminal in all of them, theres drugs, prostitution... it is being sarcastic about the world. So it definately has context. Strip clubs are not illegal, and many people go to them, is it wrong that a digital product has them..I think in the context of GTA definately not. I could easily find worse content in about 5 seconds using an internet browser.

Now will there be some people who find this unacceptable... yep I am sure. Are some people being prudish..perhaps. The stripper mini game could be called crass by some... I found it funny, so did my wife... and that's partly my point. Some people will have no issues with it, while some will. Are we to stop making such things because some people don't like it. Certainly in USA from what I read/see, American culture has more issues with Sex than they do violence.

Gaming is in some ways is still considered a product for kids, and I think thats partly the issue...people are still not getting the fact that gaming is for adults...and material can be positioned in a way for them.... ok I do agree that some games might want to add tittilation into the game just to appease the male market and that may not be part of the story or would seem crass, but I certainly dont want to get on the morale high ground. 

There are certainly worse things in life than a digital female character being portrayed as a stripper/prositute in a game...especially considering the world we live in. But I do get the fact that some people will not like it...and I have no issue with that. But...I wish some sites would stop using adult content in games to push their own agendas.

It's very much what TV/VHS video went through in the 80's in the UK with a character called Mary Whitehouse, they were not happy about content on TV - even very lite stuff. It's what gaming is going through...

I saw taht analysis wyrdness posted earlier

Wonder if this is a stunt for popularity and money, that seems to be the thing with these days. Also this is the internet, if you take everyone seriously you are going to go insane in a week.

Still if this is real its just not cool to spout death-threats.

My main issue with the GTA stripper mini-game is that it felt like someone decided that this was what their target demographic wanted so they included it. Just a complete waste of time and resources imo. The mini game wasn't particularly fun and I doubt anyone was turned on by those blocky pixelated boobs so what was the point? If it was just to add realism as you said then there are several other seedy real world elements they could have included. Would have preferred they went with dance clubs like GTA: SA, but I digress, that is really just going into my issue of how the GTA games ever since IV have been more concerned with "realism" than fun.

What is suprising about sexism in games is that its not just subtle. Some of the sexism is really overt and blatant. As much as I love the God Of War games, the sexism is shockingly blatant. You get a trophy called "I didn't... but I wish I did" for using a half naked woman as a door prop then gazing at her mangled corpse. There was also of course the whole "Bros before hos" trophy. You could make the argument that these are making a statment about kratos, but including trophies and giveng them those names is a bit much. You don't really see this kind of overt racism in games. There are stereotypes but rarely do you see the really over the top racism the way you see blatant sexism in games. You don't see sarcastic trophies being given out for lynching black people, nothing like that. I'm not a woman but I can't blame any woman that is offended by that kind of sexism. 

I hear what your saying about peoples political agendas, and when people do try to use this as a way to encourage censorship I'm 100% with you. I think the issue is muddled because sometimes you have knee-jerk claims of sexism and racism (i.e. the recent "controversies" with Assassins Creed and Far Cry 3) that create a "cry-wolf" effect for legitimate claims. But there is sexism in some games and there is no reason to stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. With that said, developers should be allowed to include sexism in their games if they feel that strongly about its importance to the game but at the same time people shouldn't go nuts if they happen to be accused of sexism.

1. The point I was trying to make is that Sarkeesian is making a big deal out of nothing, even the majority of Female gamers don't listen to Anita.

2. Sorry they are not Less Signifigant, It's funny how you justify they are less signifigant when they clearly aren't as they are just as important to the mission at hand as the main character is. That is like calling Jessica Alba in Sin City less signifigant because they use her as a backdrop, when she has EVERYTHING to do with the plot at hand. No they are characters that are nameless that are like Backdrops but are still CHARACTERS. They still have everything to do with the plot at hand.

3. I would but you would just ignore them, there are plenty of Youtube videos that Anita has already failed to debunked time and time again. She isn't militant? What a joke have you seen her Videos?

The fact that you can't see she misrepresents data like Moore and Limbaugh is hilarious. Go ahead, support a nut job.

Again you assume people go NUTS because of sexism, this isn't the case. YOU need to get it out of your head that Anita is doing the right thing when she Misrepresents/Manipulates data

PEOPLE have Criticized Movies for being Misogynistic and Video games, guess what Nobody gives a crap, people only give a crap because ANITA constantly misrepresents Data. Again making Excuses for being Self Aware.
People Crtiticize South Park all the time, they don't Misrepresent Data. She does.

When you compare all of what is said about the Female Survivor and the Male Survivor side by side you can see that it never says anything negative about the female, like it does about the male. This could be called benevolent sexism but I would argue that it is equally as sexist towards males (and not in a kind way).

Male Survivor
“He spies on his neighbors, and reports to the Overseers.” Negative
“Only after a long day of work will he return to his home and family.” Positive/Neutral?
“He always eats very well, even as his wife and child grow thin.” Negative
“It is in the common man that the Abbey finds its most faithful.” Positive/Neutral?
“He steals from his business partner. A little every day.” Negative
“Some men can still find work along the waterfront.” Neutral
“He didn’t tend to that cut, and now it festers.” Neutral
“A man is only as common as his dreams.” Positive
“All that he had was lost in the flood.” Neutral
“He used to admire the Overseers. Now he hates them.” Neutral
“That work was the best he could do. And still they weren’t satisfied.” Neutral/Negative?
“He is tired.” Neutral

Female Survivor
“She hides her hands. They are raw and scarred from the washing.” Positive/Neutral?
‘”The common woman. She fears the Abbey and the plague.” Neutral
‘”She is a seamstress in a shop frequented by the wealthy.” Neutral
‘”There is nothing common about the work she does every day.” Positive
‘”All she wants is to lay herself down in the middle of Framling Street, and await death.” Neutral/Negative?
‘”The fabric of the city is made of stuff such as she.” Positive
‘”She starves so that her children can have bread.” Positive
‘”The common folk, simple minded, selfish, but they can be kind.” Positive/Neutral?
‘”She has only one dress, and wears it to tatters.” Neutral
‘”If only she had a coin for every time she stubbed her toe.” Neutral
‘”Now the littlest one is sick.” Neutral
‘”She can hold her drink as well as any man.” Positive/Neutral

I must say that Anita has given me a very bad impression of feminism, when I had previously viewed it in a generally positive light. If I had to guess I'd say she orchestrated the tweets herself, knowing what a conniving person she is.

I agree you have to be very careful in naming trophies... and the Bros before hoes (sp?) was ill advised. When making a trophy set, you try to make the name of a trophy familiar to the players. For example if I was doing an alphabet game and you got a trophy for getting an answer right on the letter A, you might make it "The A Team"... most designers I've met try to get it to link up in that way (where the trophy is related to a well known term). I do think it was ill advised, but obviously BBH is an american term that is used quite a lot in certain groups/movies... so i can see why they might have thought it was a good idea. To be honest, it should have been picked up by someone saying..hmm you know what this isnt really appropriate. I don't think they were necessarily being sexist...but people will always get offended by it.

There are things that might be considered OTT, but again it does all come down to personal taste. As I said my wife thought the lap dancing stuff in GTA was really funny, while I am sure there are people who would get offended by it. She wouldnt get offended by BBH trophy either.. But where do you stop or start... So it is a difficult line to know when to draw that line... can you make a game about certain subjects or is it taboo... can we talk about subjects or can we not.

Yeah totally agree with the AC and FC4 games... totally cry wolf. That outrage at Far Cry 4 was really stupid...and some gaming sites complaining about the lack of female characters in AC unity and how disgraceful it was - was poor show considering how many female characters AC has had over the years.

The problem i have with it all, is they are all using the word "inclusive" that games should try to have as many groups playing it as possible. That sounds like a fine aim, but its when games are just being made and it doesnt include one of the inclusive groups, then it is suddenly evil or unacceptable. There are many games being made, does every game have to have a male/female/white/black/asian/disabled/powerful... type character. Does every game have to have a well written plot, well formed character, non backgrounds .....etc etc.  No it doesn't, and its unfortunate that the witch hunt is going that route right now. AC games being a fine example of that as you pointed out. One AC game doesnt have a playable female character and BOOM... its suddenly a disgrace, gaming sites hassling game companies with Why not!!!

I actually feel disappointed about such things like...that if i made a game about rescuing a princess, it would get lambasted because it's sexist and shows the female character as weak, or that it is using well known "trope" (hate that word)... when all it is - is a fun game about rescuing a computer character that happens to be female. Hopefully gaming snaps out of it because it's a little depressing that the agenda is being pushed down peoples throats.

Anyway really interesting conversation, appreciate it :)

Been gone for awhile but I'm back. I just can't let this backwards logic stand.

1. A big deal out of nothing because she made a couple youtube videos stating opinions? The only people I see making a big deal out of nothing are the ones reacting to her. I seriously don't get the overreaction to what is essential just someone stating opinions. So again to my point which you said was misrepresented, you think it is wrong for someone to simply state opinions, seeing as how that is all she has done, my previous point still stands. Don't comeback with that "misrepresenting data" crap either, they are opinions, you can agree or disagree, but stop acting like you have irrefutable evidence that "debunks" her arguments because you don't.

2. I'm glad you bring up Alba in Sin City.... Alba is an important character in sin city, she plays a pivotol role in the movie. She has a storyline.... BUT, there are also other dancers at Alba's strip club. Most of those dancers are background decoration... see how that works. Same thing for watch dogs. So let's review.

Alba: Important CHARACTER with her own storyline.

Other Dancers in Club: Background Decoration, most likely labeled as stripper #x in credits.

So unless each and every npc slave worker in Watch Dogs has a Jessica Alba in Sin City sized role than the Sarkeesians point still stands. There are sexualized women in watch dogs who serve as background decoration. I suggest you watch Sarkeesians video again, you are either not understanding, not trying to understand or incapable of understanding the point. You can argue the validity of her point... but to say she is "lying" well, that just isn't true.

3. I wouldn't ignore them. I'd be fascinated to see them. They'd basically be doing the impossible. Look, you guys don't seem to get how this works. You can't "debunk" mario is sexist anymore than I could "debunk" you if you said Anita Sarkeesian was sexist. I could disagree with you and explain my position, but it's not something you "debunk". I never said Mario was sexist either, but I'd still be curious to see how that "debunking" works. I've actually watched several attempted "debunkings" from mouth breathers like thunderfoot and his ilk, those videos are full of every fallacy you could possibly think of and most don't even bother addressing the arguments in any serious manner. I'd love to see some that actually tackle the arguments head on in an intelligent and respectful manner, if you have links please provide them. I'd be interested.

Maybe if you actually showed examples of her misrepresenting "data" instead of just repeating that line a million times over, I would see the light. Give me something concrete. If the watch dogs example was all you had then I'm sorry to say... you've got nothing.

So it is pretty apparent from this post that you just don't get it. Youre turning this into an argument over who faces more sexism in video games - Men or Women. That is some serious third grade logic right there. You also seem to think issues of sexism are black and white positive vs negative. I'm not sure if you are even operating on the level of someone who can process these kinds of discussions. 

And I see you're still claiming she misrepresents data without offering up any evidence to support those claims.