T013 said: bdbdbd said: T013 said: Although of course I support the Wiimote, it's BS that other controllers are too complicated. Of course you've gotta get used to them a little bit, but they make playing games a lot easier. I don't want to insult anybody, but these people seem somewhat simple-minded, thinking that everything should come in such a way you can immediately understand it.   What makes you think so? The thing that people are looking from their gadgets is ease to use. You propably have a mobile phone? Which phone would you choose, a phone from the 80:s, which was the size of 360, battery lasted hour or two and the phone weigted several kilograms, or a todays phone which fits your palm (and any pocket for that matter), weighs hundred grams and battery lasts hours of talking? Of course you need to get a little used to the mobile from 80:s, but it makes talking a lot easier. It's a little simple-minded to think that everything should come in such a way that they would be practical to use. I mean, just look at what happened to mobile phones market after the phones became more practical.  I don't think I understand you completely... are you saying that the 80's phone is easier to use, and you'd pick that one when given the choice? I'm sure that's not what you meant, but I can't figure out exactly what it is then. Also, on the bolded parts, we're saying the exact same thing, right? So what's the deal?

I was being sarcastic with the last part. As you noticed, last part contradicted the first. Anyway, maybe my point wasn't clear, but i do agree that everything doesn't need to be made for lowest common nominator, but as by default, the developement should start keeping it in mind. As i tend to continue with my phone example, mobile phones became practical the moment they started to fit peoples pocket and started to get more popular. By that time, you could only use your phone for calling people and you may even had to manually enter the number. As things progress, and phones had more features over time, when todays high-end phones have CPU:s running at hundreds of MHz:s, they have media players, operating systems, video calls, cameras, high-speed internet, GPS, radio, TV, gigabytes of on-board memory, gaming features with interchangeable cartriges, Wi-Fi, bluetooth and whatever features they have. But one thing that haven't changed over time; you take the phone to your hand, and the easiest thing you can do is make a phonecall. You just enter the number and hit call. Nothing more. The same doesn't apply to gaming, controllers have become more complex than what they were 20 years ago, just like games. You don't just pick up the controller and play, usually you just jump right into action with developer assuming that you know how to play the game. If these so called hardcore titles would have been designed so, that everyone could start playing it and enjoy, while the core game would still remain the same, gamers would get the same game and sales numbers would be higher assuring that your favourite game gets a sequel and other games for the genre would be developed. Btw, the phone thing reminded me about one interesting tidbit: In early 90:s, Nokia tried to sell its mobile phone operations to Ericsson, since Nokia didn't see a future in mobile phones and were planning to focus on networks. Ericsson refused to buy it, since they too saw networks more profitable and they already were making phones.

Men, I reckon casuals are going to destroy hardcore. I mean there is nothing wrong with the amount of buttons. We need em. People got used to the key board, and they get used to the controllers of today. Why is everything based around casuals. It's the hardcore like us that keep their games and jobs alive.

T013 said: Although of course I support the Wiimote, it's BS that other controllers are too complicated. Of course you've gotta get used to them a little bit, but they make playing games a lot easier. I don't want to insult anybody, but these people seem somewhat simple-minded, thinking that everything should come in such a way you can immediately understand it.

Shoot, I think the Wii-mote is complicated with all of it's motion controls for games that want you to waggle swing the controller certain ways to do attacks. Trying to do the correct swing can feel like a little challenge.

Swing the controller in the direction without a 100% result unless you're doing the motion correctly vs a button press..... controller/keyboard (& mouse) for me please.

 

"Harrison praised Nintendo's Wiimote"
You wouldn't have seen that a few days ago

Played_Out said: "I wish there wasn't so many buttons on the controller. You have to approach that in design terms by thinking you've only got one button," No. Just no. Making simple control schemes does not improve games in any way, it just makes them appeal to the lowest common denominator, which is exactly what shameless commercialists want. They are trying to appeal to the most people, when they should be trying to appeal to the best people. Resist the dumbening!

You mean like Go? A game with precisely one single mechanic?

Resist being obtuse!  

His analogy is a bit crude as it can be applied to anyone who doesn't know anything about some kind of technology, including the Wiimote.



Also, What does he mean 'non-game centric device'?

I don't think is about dumbing down the controls, it's more about making the interface more intuitive and immersive. Having said that I do think that the Wiimote need one more button for fighters and flight simulators, but it can be compensated with CC or GC controller support for certain kind of games, which is great about the wii, more controlling options.

If you ask me the 360/PS3 need more buttons on their controllers, and its only the old people you can not grasp the controllers give Haol3 to a kid and he will be kicking ass by the end of the day.

Here's someone who agrees with his general assessment, Valve software (whom I believe a great deal of people in this thread repsect, including me).

Robin Walker of Valve: When we decided to try Team Fortress without these things, the team assumed, "Oh, god -- there's no way we can get on without these!" Then we playtested, and all agreed: The game is actually better. And there's certainly a threshold you can cross over where too much complexity prevents people from appreciating the depth. Look at chess, rock-paper-scissors...

1up : The Sims creator Will Wright loves Go [an ancient and strategically complex game with simple rules].

Robin Walker: Yeah, an insanely simple mechanic. You each take turns putting a single piece onto this table, but people spend centuries writing strategy analyses. It literally took us years to get to the point where we were able to do that as designers, to even realize it was right.

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=5&cId=3165930

 

Let me emphasize this: the people who think "games with more buttons and stuff to do" are smarter while "games with less stuff to do and less buttons" are dumber are obtuse. It's incorrect. Go, one of my favorite games, has precisely one mechanic, and it's more complicated than pretty much any other game I've ever played.

This is something that many of even the video game designers are just now waking up to, so it's nothing to be ashamed of that many of us didn't realize it before. Still, it's important to emphasize: more buttons does not equal more intelligent. In fact, I'd argue that for most designers, it's a crutch, in precisely the way Molyneux describes -- it's extremely challenging to make a game as deep and rich as Go, so rather than try to create a robust, focused experience, they just keep adding crap on and hope the game is "deep" simply because of how many actions there are in the game. If you give a character 40 guns to work with, it's automatically deep!

There's a reason Starcraft is still on the top of the competitive gaming scene, even though it's long been passed in the sheer number of units and tech trees involved.

antfromtashkent said: lol i sorry this is tottaly not a troll or anything but ive noticed that Wii supporters seem to jump up and defend the Wii when its not even being bashed...... i played MP on the wii and i dint like the controls for it.... thats my oppinion... i would pick analog controls over point and shoot any day.... < MY OPPINION!

 I will never begrudge someone their opinion, but I think you are judging the effectiveness of the controls based on the wrong game. I loathe the controls for Metroid Prime 3. It is the sole reason I got about an hour into the game and then just stopped. I can't stand how bad the control is compared to the beauty and wonder of the original Metroid Prime. That being said I must say I think the Wii controls are the only thing out there that rival the keyboard+mouse. They are not as good so far, but the control mechanics are still in their infancy so the final judgment should wait a little bit.

 If you want to see how amazing the controls can be I suggest you try Resident Evil 4: Wii edition. The controls are so unbelievably amazing on that game that it instantly made me a true believer in the potential of the wiimote for t/fps. Everytime I tried to find something annoying about the controls it turned out to be a mechanic I loved. Before writing off the wiimote you should really try this game out and see how well it can be done.