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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

TheSting on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:

Major Nelson said you "can't flip a switch" and turn off DRM since "the console was built around it"

Phil Harrison said "Xbox One is Kinect. They aren't separate systems" which implies that removal was impossible. It'd be akin to removing the RAM and expecting the system to still work

edit: and if you take "you can't flip a switch" to mean "it's not that the DRM is unable to change, it's that it'll take hard work and time to change it", well, first off, they literally did just "flip a switch". E3 2013 was June 11-13, the 180 happened on the 19th of the same month. And if the console was "built around it", it implies that it can't be changed. Wii was built around motion controls....you couldn't just "flip a switch" and get rid of the Wii mote. PS3 was built around blu-ray and high capacity games. You couldn't just "flip a switch" and get rid of Blu-ray. That's what "built around" means.

It needed a firmware download to remove it. If it was easy to remove it would not have shipped with it. How much work was put into removing?



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BMaker11 on 22 July 2014

-formatting sucked, will repost-



BMaker11 on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:

Thank you, now we are on subject.  I forgot  about Harrison statement now that you found it concerning Kinect.  Context is key here as well.  Harrison is talking about removing Kinect bundled with the X1.  It was already known before his statement that you do not have to have Kinect connected as this was posted June 19 2013 which talks about the whole switch in X1 policy.  Also its probably the closes MS was going to give as a apology on the issue.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/update

As for March Whitten, he was just reiterating the policy changed months ago.

As to the bolded part, isn't Kinect still integrated.  The essential part we have not arrived at as we need a few more years to see if MS continue to develop and expand Kinect features.

As for the 24 hour check, the link I provided is your official letter from MS on the subject.

Oh no you don't, he said Xbox One IS Kinect, they aren't separate. It's as essential to the console as the chips, blu ray, RAM, power supply, etc. because they are all apart of the platform ecosystem i.e. they're what make up the package you call "Xbox One" (the guts of the system). Meaning that if you removed any one of them, Xbox One doesn't work. If that's not what he meant, then that means if I get rid of the CPU, the XBone will still work since the "platform ecosystem" has parts you can just toss out, apparently.

And the link you provided was the flip of the switch. Prior to that, they said it can't be done because the console was built around DRM.





Machiavellian on 22 July 2014
Aura7541 said:
To build up on my analogy earlier, the difference between me in the analogy and MS is that MS took the wrong path repeatedly. What is even worse is that MS tried to justify it. We all saw the infamous Angry Joe interview with Major Nelson. And ugh... the infamous "We have a product for people who can't get online, it's called Xbox 360" quote by Don Mattrick really crossed the line.

Let's compare this to, for example, Freedom Wars being released in retail in Europe. Vita fans complained to SCEE that they want the physical game and thus, Sony responded in a timely fashion. Huge difference between these two scenarios. (Note that I'm NOT saying Sony listens to consumers and MS does not. I'm merely providing examples to point out the differences between listening to consumers vs listening to consumers after not listening to them initially).

Could you clarify on MS going down the wrong path repeatedly.  Are we talking about the X1 or in general.

@Bolded:  Oh I totally agree with those being a very bad moment in PR from MS.  Don statement was just plain dumb and Larry was complete ignorance.  

@2nd Bolded:  I am not sure I see the difference.  Before E3, how did consumers get a chance to tell MS they were on the wrong page.  It was during E3 that everything was revealed.  During and after E3 MS received constant info from cunsumers, bloggers and press that gamers were unhappy with the console direction.  What is the difference then what you just wrote.  Sony released a game without a disk, gamers complained they wanted a disk, Sony gave them a disk.  In your analogy, Sony would never have released the game without a physical copy because they would have known gamers wanted it.

Would not your analogy be correct if MS released the X1 exactly how they advertised it at E3 after getting constant feedback from consumers that they did not want this type of console then change it up.



BMaker11 on 22 July 2014
TheSting said:

It needed a firmware download to remove it. If it was easy to remove it would not have shipped with it. How much work was put into removing?

Why do games ship with Day 1 patches to up the rez to 1080p? They let the games go gold knowing full well they could just have it run at 1080p, but they still release and patch it the moment you insert the disc into the console. Clearly they have the code to apply it to the game beforehand, since they announce months in advance that the patch is released the day the game releases (when, in those months, they could just make the game 1080p on the disc), but they just don't apply it.

So, to answer your question: I have no clue how much work they put into it, but it doesn't mean they put a whole lot into it just because DRM was still on the console when the console launched. We know that when any kind of hiccups happen in game development, the games get delayed months. Xbone's release date never waivered. So obviously this "crucial" element to the launch didn't take long to sort out



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Aura7541 on 22 July 2014
Machiavellian said:
Aura7541 said:
To build up on my analogy earlier, the difference between me in the analogy and MS is that MS took the wrong path repeatedly. What is even worse is that MS tried to justify it. We all saw the infamous Angry Joe interview with Major Nelson. And ugh... the infamous "We have a product for people who can't get online, it's called Xbox 360" quote by Don Mattrick really crossed the line.

Let's compare this to, for example, Freedom Wars being released in retail in Europe. Vita fans complained to SCEE that they want the physical game and thus, Sony responded in a timely fashion. Huge difference between these two scenarios. (Note that I'm NOT saying Sony listens to consumers and MS does not. I'm merely providing examples to point out the differences between listening to consumers vs listening to consumers after not listening to them initially).

Could you clarify on MS going down the wrong path repeatedly.  Are we talking about the X1 or in general.

@Bolded:  Oh I totally agree with those being a very bad moment in PR from MS.  Don statement was just plain dumb and Larry was complete ignorance.  

@2nd Bolded:  I am not sure I see the difference.  Before E3, how did consumers get a chance to tell MS they were on the wrong page.  It was during E3 that everything was revealed.  During and after E3 MS received constant info from cunsumers, bloggers and press that gamers were unhappy with the console direction.  What is the difference then what you just wrote.  Sony released a game without a disk, gamers complained they wanted a disk, Sony gave them a disk.  In your analogy, Sony would never have released the game without a physical copy because they would have known gamers wanted it.

Would not your analogy be correct if MS released the X1 exactly how they advertised it at E3 after getting constant feedback from consumers that they did not want this type of console then change it up.

@1st Bolded. I'm talking about the X1.

@ 2nd Bolded. If you read the the text inside the parantheses, you'll find your answer. The difference was the time it took for Sony and MS to react. One company took a significantly shorter time to react than the other.



Aura7541 on 22 July 2014
S.T.A.G.E. said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

Well you see, if it suits your agenda, you could easily call listening to the consumer "doing the bare minimum" or "doing what they had to do so xbox would still exist" or some equally silly attempt to distance their actions and intent from trying to provide a product consumers will buy.

Still scratching my head at people saying MS lied or that they deserve an apology. These companies change policies and strategies all the time and I never see an apology. In fact the only two times in my decades of gaming that I remember apologies are the RROD and the PSN hacking fiasco, and both of those warranted apologies. Believing your Kinect product to be a great piece of tech that gamers will want and developers will utilize and finding out neither are particularly true is not something that warrants a damn apology LOL. Kind of like Sony calling rumble a "last gen feature" and then quickly coming out with a rumble controller.. there didn't need to be an apology packed inside each Dualshock 3.

 


MS wasnt listening to anyone but themselves. It wasnt until Gamestop lowered Microsofts preorder numbers that they changed their ways.

I don't think Gamestop lowered MS's preorder numbers nor could they actually do that. They were already low to begin with. Also, MS had additional warning signs prior to preorders such as the surveys and IGN giving the PS4 the People's Choice Award right after the X1 reveal. People may argue that the surveys aren't accurate and yaddi-yada-yada, but the disparity was so huge that even with a +/- 10% margin of error, the surveys would still be lopsided.



Machiavellian on 22 July 2014
BMaker11 said:
Machiavellian said:

Thank you, now we are on subject.  I forgot  about Harrison statement now that you found it concerning Kinect.  Context is key here as well.  Harrison is talking about removing Kinect bundled with the X1.  It was already known before his statement that you do not have to have Kinect connected as this was posted June 19 2013 which talks about the whole switch in X1 policy.  Also its probably the closes MS was going to give as a apology on the issue.

http://news.xbox.com/2013/06/update

As for March Whitten, he was just reiterating the policy changed months ago.

As to the bolded part, isn't Kinect still integrated.  The essential part we have not arrived at as we need a few more years to see if MS continue to develop and expand Kinect features.

As for the 24 hour check, the link I provided is your official letter from MS on the subject.

Oh no you don't, he said Xbox One IS Kinect, they aren't separate. It's as essential to the console as the chips, blu ray, RAM, power supply, etc. because they are all apart of the platform ecosystem i.e. they're what make up the package you call "Xbox One" (the guts of the system). Meaning that if you removed any one of them, Xbox One doesn't work. If that's not what he meant, then that means if I get rid of the CPU, the XBone will still work since the "platform ecosystem" has parts you can just toss out, apparently.

And the link you provided was the flip of the switch. Prior to that, they said it can't be done because the console was built around DRM.

Ok, I accept his terminalogy stating Kinect is the X1 and proof that more than one person made this statement from MS.

@ Bolded: I made this statement already.  Only one person stated that MS could not remove the DRM and that was Larry Hryb.  No one else within the company made such a statement.  Also MS did not just flip a switch as it took a sizable patch on day one to make it happen.



sales2099 on 22 July 2014
Xenostar said:
sales2099 said:
Don't know how hard it is for some people to recognize the console, as it stands now, is a great machine and is only improving further. Most of the issues of E3 2013 didn't even make it to the final product.

I can't see the video, but I have an idea. I mean some people........just get over it. The people won and made a difference. Just seems like another kicking-while-down tactic meant to bolster "the competition", hence the click bait title.


Well nothing in the video is a wrong, its just all stuff we all know repeated for the 100th time, you say its only improving, but only last week they canned Xbox Entertainment, so sureley 8 months after release its still taking some steps back. Thats basically the point of the video and that MS never apologise for these backwards steps.

Except canning Xbox entertainment is a step forward as it had nothing to do with games, nor did core fans even want it, merely we tolerated its existance. Why apologize (by the way they did origionally) when the changes are for the better...



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

sales2099 on 22 July 2014
Xenostar said:
Machiavellian said:

You consider canning a studio that does no games as a step back?  Could you explain to me why getting rid of Xbox Entertainment which probably was sucking up millions of dollars for something of little value to the Xbox brand and spread they focus outside of gameing not a smart move.  Is making smart decisions also considered as step backs, lying and 180.  

Whatever, i see you would argue black is white and that MS has done no wrong with the XBox One.

Enjoy.

No that's the thing....MS did plenty wrong, but they are fixing it. People still harping on the negatives over a year ago and not what they are trying to do now.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles.