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Forums - Gaming - I Honestly think consoles are a dying breed, just like handhelds

MDMAlliance said:
Ucell said:
MDMAlliance said:
Ucell said:

GTA isn't an FPS.


I know that.  I already implied that by saying that other games that AREN'T GTA sell similar numbers to FPS games.

Not really, nothing sells like GTA on a release-by-release basis. Including FPS games.

I think you're not understanding what I said.  I'm saying that there are other games that sell like FPS games (NOT including games like GTA).  I'm saying there are games that aren't FPS and GTA (or other openworld games) that sell similar numbers to FPS games.  Also, you seem to forget that Pokemon is a thing.

Yeah then games like Gran Turismo, Assassin's Creed, The Elder Scrolls do sell similar numbers to major FPS games like BF and Halo, but thing is no single genre is as dominant in general as FPS games.

Also no games sell like COD on a release-by-release basis other than GTA.



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SvennoJ said:
^ Thanks for turning me even more off pc gaming. Even if you manage to build a pc that matches the ps4 in theoretical performance, the games running on it still won't match it. On PC you get a generic build that has to be able to work with many different configurations. On PS4 developers know exactly what's available, can use every bit to the fullest, and compile an optimized build with as much as possible hardcoded.


Maybe they can use every bit to the fullest 4-5 years into the Gen, but it's pretty rare 8 months in.



Danman27 said:
teigaga said:

Consoles and PCs are ultimately different, PC's don't interest me as gaming machines. I don't want to sit at my desk with a mouse and keyboard, so why spend half a grand on a mid-low range PC only to treat it like an oversized, cumbersome console?


You do realize that gaming PCs can be ran on a big screen tv right? And also that 95% of games will work with a controller. 


I already acknowledged that in the bolded. You can treat your PC like a console if you want, but its more hassle/less convienient, less ergonomic and probably lower value for money, not to mention lacking in AAA exclusives (of the kind that I like). Furthermore I don't even like desktops, i use a laptop; so matching the PS4- not simply in specs, but actual performance- will probably be even more of a financial burden.



PC is great if you want graphics
Consoles are great if you want... all the rest.



Hey don't click here ! It's creepy !!

I want a PlayStation All-Stars Sequel ! Come on Sony, stop making too many shooters !

I'll make a better signature when I'll have time to do it...  

Captain_Tom said:
RazorDragon said:
Captain_Tom said:

Pretty much everything your saying is wrong.  I don't have time to correct everything but I will say that the PS4's cpu is easily as strong as an i3, and modern games already use 8 cores or more.  Dual-threaded cpu's became obsolete in anything but mega low end gaming about 4 years ago, and whithin another 2 years the same will be true about quad-threaded cpu's (Besides the k-series i5's running above 4GHz.


What I said is true. The amount of cores is hardly relevant when talking about different architectures, base clock speeds and TDP requirements. It's also not about using more or less cores in applications that support them, even though this is helpful when talking about heavily multithreaded workloads. PS4 and XOne have 6 cores available to be used in games. While there are a lot of cores compared to this particular dual threaded Intel CPU, since Jaguar's IPC isn't even comparable with a 2007 Wolfdale(Pentium/Celeron/Core 2 Duo 45nm 2007 cores), actually, it's roughly 20% worse, it's hardly competitive with a current gen Haswell processor, even with that many cores(while, admittedly, drawing a lot less power than a Haswell processor, thanks to different architectures focused at different kinds of workloads). You just need to compare Passmark scores to see what i'm talking about: the Celeron G1610 does about 1400 points in the single threaded score, while an Athlon 5150(4 Jaguar cores at 1.6GHz, same CPU as PS3 with 2 less cores) does 635. The different architecture and higher clock speed alone are enough to make 1 Celeron core perform a lot better than 2 Jaguar cores, multithreading your software won't change anything if a CPU is slow as that.

Passmark is not gaming.  Here a 6-core FX-6300 beats a quad-core i5-2500K at nearly the same clocks:

http://www.bf4blog.com/battlefield-4-retail-gpu-cpu-benchmarks/

Then keep in mind that the PS4 has way faster RAM to feed the CPU (This does matter since console devs will actually use it), and if the PS4 utilized even 5% of its GPU's proccessing power it would destroy anything out there....

Wait a second why am I wasting my time talking about the CPU?!  Either way it isn't going to bottleneck the GPU so that is all that matters at this point and it is as strong as an R9 270.  A PC that houses that is not $400, it's $600.


Not really sure I should answer you after that "if the PS4 utilized even 5% of its GPU's proccessing power it would destroy anything out there" since I believe nothing I can say here will change your mind, but, oh well. Unfortunately I couldn't find benchmarks for both the Celeron and the Athlon 5150 on Futuremark(which would be a better comparison since it's a gaming related test) and, while you're right that Passmark isn't gaming, it does indicate quite precisely a processors performance, when one Celeron core is performing better at it than 2 Jaguar cores you can expect absolutely the same in gaming scenarios, that's exactly why those Intel Atom dual-core smartphone processors beat Quad Core Snapdragons, more cores doesn't mean anything if single core performance isn't up to par. That's exactly why in Passmark the FX-6300 and the i5-2500K are pretty much on par, even if the i5-2500K has 2 less cores. Based on the benchmark you posted, 2 extra cores scored about 2 frames of difference. If going by your logic that more cores = better, ignoring single-core performance, then how it isn't doing much better than an i5 processor? As I said, performance isn't measured by only the amount of cores on the processor, architecture, clock speed and TDP requirements are just as important.

Anyway, I've got some Athlon 5350 benchmarks so you can just see how much bottlenecking these low-power processors are probably causing on the 7970M/7850-like card on PS4. This processor is clocked higher than the 5150(which matches PS4's processor in architecture and clock speed, only with 2 less cores), so it should deliver a better representation of how a PS4 APU would perform:

Any CPU heavy game and framerates go down by almost 50%. And that's with a GTX 750Ti, much slower than a 7970M/7850. That's actually the main problem with creating a similar PC hardware as these next-gen consoles. Their hardware is so unbalanced between CPU and GPU that you can't expect good performance running similar PC hardware, since PC games usually aren't that well optimized and using such a weak CPU can choke down the whole system.



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Nettles said:
SvennoJ said:
^ Thanks for turning me even more off pc gaming. Even if you manage to build a pc that matches the ps4 in theoretical performance, the games running on it still won't match it. On PC you get a generic build that has to be able to work with many different configurations. On PS4 developers know exactly what's available, can use every bit to the fullest, and compile an optimized build with as much as possible hardcoded.


Maybe they can use every bit to the fullest 4-5 years into the Gen, but it's pretty rare 8 months in.

Sure, console games keep improving during the gen, further increasing the difference between the console build and the pc build on similar hardware.
My point was that if you want to match gaming performance you'll need quite a bit of overhead in raw power, and even then you're not guaranteed a smooth experience. Adjusting the settings on the fly in heavy scenes has been done for you on console.



SirFortesque said:
PC is great if you want graphics
Consoles are great if you want... all the rest.


Like what?  The Teamspeak community I'm in has over 50 active members.  Some play games together and play a wide variety.  On console 80% of my friends play FPS games, the other 20% play single player games.   Steam is also dirt cheap, minecraft mods make the game vastly better, and I can  sell items that get dropped in matches from Valve games.  Sold a blue Pudge mustache item for $30 a month ago that I got from a normal game in dota2. 

 

The only thing I prefer consoles for is my fps fix, some exclusives, and features (Which is why I got an XBO as its far superior than any other console in the feature aspect).    And sports games.  They get no support on PC and the controls are terrible without a controller. 



RazorDragon said:
Captain_Tom said:
RazorDragon said:
Captain_Tom said:

Pretty much everything your saying is wrong.  I don't have time to correct everything but I will say that the PS4's cpu is easily as strong as an i3, and modern games already use 8 cores or more.  Dual-threaded cpu's became obsolete in anything but mega low end gaming about 4 years ago, and whithin another 2 years the same will be true about quad-threaded cpu's (Besides the k-series i5's running above 4GHz.


What I said is true. The amount of cores is hardly relevant when talking about different architectures, base clock speeds and TDP requirements. It's also not about using more or less cores in applications that support them, even though this is helpful when talking about heavily multithreaded workloads. PS4 and XOne have 6 cores available to be used in games. While there are a lot of cores compared to this particular dual threaded Intel CPU, since Jaguar's IPC isn't even comparable with a 2007 Wolfdale(Pentium/Celeron/Core 2 Duo 45nm 2007 cores), actually, it's roughly 20% worse, it's hardly competitive with a current gen Haswell processor, even with that many cores(while, admittedly, drawing a lot less power than a Haswell processor, thanks to different architectures focused at different kinds of workloads). You just need to compare Passmark scores to see what i'm talking about: the Celeron G1610 does about 1400 points in the single threaded score, while an Athlon 5150(4 Jaguar cores at 1.6GHz, same CPU as PS3 with 2 less cores) does 635. The different architecture and higher clock speed alone are enough to make 1 Celeron core perform a lot better than 2 Jaguar cores, multithreading your software won't change anything if a CPU is slow as that.

Passmark is not gaming.  Here a 6-core FX-6300 beats a quad-core i5-2500K at nearly the same clocks:

http://www.bf4blog.com/battlefield-4-retail-gpu-cpu-benchmarks/

Then keep in mind that the PS4 has way faster RAM to feed the CPU (This does matter since console devs will actually use it), and if the PS4 utilized even 5% of its GPU's proccessing power it would destroy anything out there....

Wait a second why am I wasting my time talking about the CPU?!  Either way it isn't going to bottleneck the GPU so that is all that matters at this point and it is as strong as an R9 270.  A PC that houses that is not $400, it's $600.


Not really sure I should answer you after that "if the PS4 utilized even 5% of its GPU's proccessing power it would destroy anything out there" since I believe nothing I can say here will change your mind, but, oh well. Unfortunately I couldn't find benchmarks for both the Celeron and the Athlon 5150 on Futuremark(which would be a better comparison since it's a gaming related test) and, while you're right that Passmark isn't gaming, it does indicate quite precisely a processors performance, when one Celeron core is performing better at it than 2 Jaguar cores you can expect absolutely the same in gaming scenarios, that's exactly why those Intel Atom dual-core smartphone processors beat Quad Core Snapdragons, more cores doesn't mean anything if single core performance isn't up to par. That's exactly why in Passmark the FX-6300 and the i5-2500K are pretty much on par, even if the i5-2500K has 2 less cores. Based on the benchmark you posted, 2 extra cores scored about 2 frames of difference. If going by your logic that more cores = better, ignoring single-core performance, then how it isn't doing much better than an i5 processor? As I said, performance isn't measured by only the amount of cores on the processor, architecture, clock speed and TDP requirements are just as important.

Anyway, I've got some Athlon 5350 benchmarks so you can just see how much bottlenecking these low-power processors are probably causing on the 7970M/7850-like card on PS4. This processor is clocked higher than the 5150(which matches PS4's processor in architecture and clock speed, only with 2 less cores), so it should deliver a better representation of how a PS4 APU would perform:

Any CPU heavy game and framerates go down by almost 50%. And that's with a GTX 750Ti, much slower than a 7970M/7850. That's actually the main problem with creating a similar PC hardware as these next-gen consoles. Their hardware is so unbalanced between CPU and GPU that you can't expect good performance running similar PC hardware, since PC games usually aren't that well optimized and using such a weak CPU can choke down the whole system.

And you are proving nothing.  Yes a 12-threaded  i7 beats a 2 GHz AMD quad-core.  Surprise!  However the PS4 does not have a quadcore, and it can offload some of its processing to the GPU if it needs to; which will be much less of a drain on it than you would expect (I have done this before on my PC using different programs).  

Also notice that in some games it isn't even bottlenecked lol!   So yeah give it some more cores and optimize the code and it isn't an issue like I said.  Thank you for the graphic that perfectly backs up my point!

P.S.  I own a kabini CPU (The Athlon 5350 comes from this line), an i7, and quite a few other cpu's and gpu's.  You are not teaching me anything.  My opinions have been formed by actually knowing what I am talking about from first-hand experience.



Ka-pi96 said:
Danman27 said:
teigaga said:

Consoles and PCs are ultimately different, PC's don't interest me as gaming machines. I don't want to sit at my desk with a mouse and keyboard, so why spend half a grand on a mid-low range PC only to treat it like an oversized, cumbersome console?


You do realize that gaming PCs can be ran on a big screen tv right? And also that 95% of games will work with a controller. 


Not particularly easy to do so though.

Yes plugging in two things is a lot harder than pluggin in two thi- Hey wait! No it's just as easy. 



teigaga said:
Danman27 said:
teigaga said:

Consoles and PCs are ultimately different, PC's don't interest me as gaming machines. I don't want to sit at my desk with a mouse and keyboard, so why spend half a grand on a mid-low range PC only to treat it like an oversized, cumbersome console?


You do realize that gaming PCs can be ran on a big screen tv right? And also that 95% of games will work with a controller. 


I already acknowledged that in the bolded. You can treat your PC like a console if you want, but its more hassle/less convienient, less ergonomic and probably lower value for money, not to mention lacking in AAA exclusives (of the kind that I like). Furthermore I don't even like desktops, i use a laptop; so matching the PS4- not simply in specs, but actual performance- will probably be even more of a financial burden.


That's the problem though, trying to match a PS4's performance is what makes you spend too much money for little performance. Can you match a ps4 for $400? No, anyone who says that is dead wrong. But if you're willing to spend 800, you'll probably get something a lot better performance-wise.