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Forums - Politics - What does Putin want with Ukraine

 

What is his end state

Annex Ukraine As a whole 337 40.60%
 
Annex Crimea 286 34.46%
 
Defend Russian People Fro... 184 22.17%
 
Total:807
mai on 08 May 2014
Kasz216 said:
mai said:
Kasz216 said:

Quote on what? That the policy existed?

A quote from the text you referred that talks about actual policy in place, do not force your opponent to do all the legwork for you.

Food requisition wasn't in place in, say, 1930-31, the first year of harvest well below expected. Relationships between kolkhoz'es and Soviet government were based on contract agreements at the time (eventually replaced by compulsory deliveries).

UPD: hell, even wiki has an article about it: Contracting in USSR. As I've said, first eduacte yourself.


Well if we're using Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor#Extensive_export_of_grain_and_other_food

quit being silly and argueing things you don't believe and know aren't true.

So you've admitted the fact that food requisitions haven't been used at the time? I don't need wiki to know that contracting was the main way for Soviet government to get grain and other food from kolkhoz'es, e.g.:

"Постановление Комиссии исполнения при СНК СССР от 06.04.1931 "О выполнении директив по контрактации яровых посевов в 1931 г. (в части зерновых, льна и конопли)"

"USSR SNK executive commission resolution from 06.04.1931 "On the implementation of guidelines for contracting spring sowing of 1931 (grain, flax and hemp)"

Source

 

May I ask you to stay on topic? In other words if you have a thesis -- defend it, not stealthy change it with another. If you want to present another thesis, so do it properly with your own words.



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Kasz216 on 08 May 2014
mai said:
Kasz216 said:
mai said:
Kasz216 said:

Quote on what? That the policy existed?

A quote from the text you referred that talks about actual policy in place, do not force your opponent to do all the legwork for you.

Food requisition wasn't in place in, say, 1930-31, the first year of harvest well below expected. Relationships between kolkhoz'es and Soviet government were based on contract agreements at the time (eventually replaced by compulsory deliveries).

UPD: hell, even wiki has an article about it: Contracting in USSR. As I've said, first eduacte yourself.


Well if we're using Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor#Extensive_export_of_grain_and_other_food

quit being silly and argueing things you don't believe and know aren't true.

So you've admitted the fact that food requisitions haven't been used at the time? I don't need wiki to know that contracting was the main way for Soviet government to get grain and other food from kolkhoz'es, e.g.:

"Постановление Комиссии исполнения при СНК СССР от 06.04.1931 "О выполнении директив по контрактации яровых посевов в 1931 г. (в части зерновых, льна и конопли)"

"USSR SNK executive commission resolution from 06.04.1931 "On the implementation of guidelines for contracting spring sowing of 1931 (grain, flax and hemp)"

Source

 

May I ask you to stay on topic? In other words if you have a thesis -- defend it, not stealthy change it with another. If you want to present another thesis, so do it properly with your own words.

See, this is what i'm talking about.  The "thesis" has always been the same.  The Russians took out tons of food from the ukraine, and blacklisted the villiages with the worst famines who couldn't pay the taxes, sentencing them to an even surer death.

 

This is something you don't actually deny, and you actually know that holomodor was an active genocide, so you try to dance around with silly pedantic semantics.  People don't stop to argue with you because they can't.  They stop argueing with you for the same reason you stop argueing against a holocaust denier or someone who doesn't believe in evolution.

Eventually it stops being fun.

Like I said before, not going to re-deep dive all this info and put it out piece by piece.   We BOTH know your wrong, and you are just attempting to troll people.



mai on 08 May 2014
Kasz216 said:
mai said:
Kasz216 said:
mai said:
Kasz216 said:

Quote on what? That the policy existed?

A quote from the text you referred that talks about actual policy in place, do not force your opponent to do all the legwork for you.

Food requisition wasn't in place in, say, 1930-31, the first year of harvest well below expected. Relationships between kolkhoz'es and Soviet government were based on contract agreements at the time (eventually replaced by compulsory deliveries).

UPD: hell, even wiki has an article about it: Contracting in USSR. As I've said, first eduacte yourself.


Well if we're using Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor#Extensive_export_of_grain_and_other_food

quit being silly and argueing things you don't believe and know aren't true.

So you've admitted the fact that food requisitions haven't been used at the time? I don't need wiki to know that contracting was the main way for Soviet government to get grain and other food from kolkhoz'es, e.g.:

"Постановление Комиссии исполнения при СНК СССР от 06.04.1931 "О выполнении директив по контрактации яровых посевов в 1931 г. (в части зерновых, льна и конопли)"

"USSR SNK executive commission resolution from 06.04.1931 "On the implementation of guidelines for contracting spring sowing of 1931 (grain, flax and hemp)"

Source

 

May I ask you to stay on topic? In other words if you have a thesis -- defend it, not stealthy change it with another. If you want to present another thesis, so do it properly with your own words.

See, this is what i'm talking about.  The "thesis" has always been the same.  The Russians took out tons of food from the ukraine, and blacklisted the villiages with the worst famines who couldn't pay the taxes, sentencing them to an even surer death.

 

This is something you don't actually deny, and you actually know that holomodor was an active genocide, so you try to dance around with silly pedantic semantics.  People don't stop to argue with you because they can't.  They stop argueing with you for the same reason you stop argueing against a holocaust denier or someone who doesn't believe in evolution.

Eventually it stops being fun.

Like I said before, not going to re-deep dive all this info and put it out piece by piece.   We BOTH know your wrong, and you are just attempting to troll people.

These are not theses, this is hypothesis, based on what exactly?

UPD: And it's counterproductive to discuss opponent's motives, ad hominem arguments are not real arguments.



Kasz216 on 08 May 2014
mai said:
Kasz216 said:
mai said:
Kasz216 said:
mai said:
Kasz216 said:

 

See, this is what i'm talking about.  The "thesis" has always been the same.  The Russians took out tons of food from the ukraine, and blacklisted the villiages with the worst famines who couldn't pay the taxes, sentencing them to an even surer death.

 

This is something you don't actually deny, and you actually know that holomodor was an active genocide, so you try to dance around with silly pedantic semantics.  People don't stop to argue with you because they can't.  They stop argueing with you for the same reason you stop argueing against a holocaust denier or someone who doesn't believe in evolution.

Eventually it stops being fun.

Like I said before, not going to re-deep dive all this info and put it out piece by piece.   We BOTH know your wrong, and you are just attempting to troll people.

These are not theses, this is hypothesis, based on what exactly?

UPD: And it's counterproductive to discuss opponent's motives, ad hominem arguments are not real arguments.

 

A Hypothisis suggests there isn't any proof.  When this is a  well documented thing.  Which is funny because they spent 50+ years trying to cover the thing up.  

In regards to your update.   I'm confused with your arguement here, since your entire arguement agaisnt Holomodor has been exactly nothing BUT adhomniem attacks.

Outside which the food exports are very well document... and this is something you know, and you just kept dodging around the fact the food was removed in a game of semantics of HOW the food was removed.  

Which coincidentally is when Ad Hominem reasoning actually IS valid.  

Additionally,  what's said to try and dismiss your arguements.  We both already know it's there.  Hell, the wikipedia page i provided has exact records.  
It was to explain why people rarely do bother to argue with you.   Because you specifically aren't credible.
If someone like Khan  were to make an arguement.  That's be worth argueing with, because he'd actually care.
Or hell even someone like Realmafoo, who while often not knowing his facts... actually wants to learn.
As for you, you just like to stir shit up and support stuff you know isn't even true, even in the face of blinding specific evidence.   A videotape recording of Stalin saying "Lets starve the Ukranians" likely wouldn't serve as proper proof for you because you'd argue that any timestamp indicators could of been added by the west, or pro west government officials, or that he could of said to do that but the government policy never got put into place.
Again, this isn't meant to invalidate your arguement (it's already been invalidated) this is specifically an invalidation of you specficially as someoen who it's worth argueing with.  
I've really humored you more then enough when we both know i'm correct, and you are now staring directly at the cold hard numbers infront of you.  (Which you've probably known this entire time.)
I'm sure the next leg of this anyway was just going to be you argueing genocide doesn't fit because it more targeted a specific class, aka the Kulaks then it did Ukranians as a whole... Ukrainians as a whole being more a side casualty.  And that Stalin specifically demanded economic classes  be left out of the official definition of geneocide.  (Always being ironic since that would be the one thing Marx and Lenin would of wanted in there and fought hard to be included.)
Really don't have time for another silly semantic dance.


PigPen on 08 May 2014

Putin is bringing the Soviet Union back.



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mai on 08 May 2014
Kasz216 said:

A Hypothisis suggests there isn't any proof.  When this is a  well documented thing.  Which is funny because they spent 50+ years trying to cover the thing up.  

In regards to your update.   I'm confused with your arguement here, since your entire arguement agaisnt Holomodor has been exactly nothing BUT adhomniem attacks.

Outside which the food exports are very well document... and this is something you know, and you just kept dodging around the fact the food was removed in a game of semantics of HOW the food was removed.  

Which coincidentally is when Ad Hominem reasoning actually IS valid.  

Additionally,  what's said to try and dismiss your arguements.  We both already know it's there.  Hell, the wikipedia page i provided has exact records.  
It was to explain why people rarely do bother to argue with you.   Because you specifically aren't credible.
If someone like Khan  were to make an arguement.  That's be worth argueing with, because he'd actually care.
Or hell even someone like Realmafoo, who while often not knowing his facts... actually wants to learn.
As for you, you just like to stir shit up and support stuff you know isn't even true, even in the face of blinding specific evidence.   A videotape recording of Stalin saying "Lets starve the Ukranians" likely wouldn't serve as proper proof for you because you'd argue that any timestamp indicators could of been added by the west, or pro west government officials, or that he could of said to do that but the government policy never got put into place.
Again, this isn't meant to invalidate your arguement (it's already been invalidated) this is specifically an invalidation of you specficially as someoen who it's worth argueing with.  
I've really humored you more then enough when we both know i'm correct, and you are now staring directly at the cold hard numbers infront of you.  (Which you've probably known this entire time.)
I'm sure the next leg of this anyway was just going to be you argueing genocide doesn't fit because it more targeted a specific class, aka the Kulaks then it did Ukranians as a whole... Ukrainians as a whole being more a side casualty.  And that Stalin specifically demanded economic classes  be left out of the official definition of geneocide.  (Always being ironic since that would be the one thing Marx and Lenin would of wanted in there and fought hard to be included.)
Really don't have time for another silly semantic dance.

Kazs, do you really want me to go through all this opinionated crap and personal attacks? :D For starters I suggest you use line breaks, second "brevity is the soul of wit".

The only thesis I've managed to dig up from this is smth about food export, elaborate it so we actually would have smth to talk about.

UPD: And do not forget to reference sources! If you so damn credbile unlike me :D even though it seems I'm the only one who's providing actual historical documents as of now.



Sharu on 08 May 2014

Mai, he linked wiki, so he's an expert in Soviet history now.



ArnoldRimmer on 08 May 2014
Kasz216 said:

Sort of misses the whole first part of the event....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383

Whatever you're trying to say.



ArnoldRimmer on 08 May 2014
mai said:

Thanks you, Kasz. Talking to you is as enjoyable as banging the head against the wall :D And mind you, it is as productive.

Just stop it then. There's no point in discussing with people whose postings are so full of insults and personal attacks like kasz's latest postings, which sound like he's trying to master "the ultimate strategem" in Schopenhauer's "the art of being right": "A last trick is to become personal, insulting, rude, as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand, and that you are going to come off worst."

I seriously wonder how he became a moderator with this kind of behaviour.



Kasz216 on 08 May 2014
mai said:
Kasz216 said:

A Hypothisis suggests there isn't any proof.  When this is a  well documented thing.  Which is funny because they spent 50+ years trying to cover the thing up.  

In regards to your update.   I'm confused with your arguement here, since your entire arguement agaisnt Holomodor has been exactly nothing BUT adhomniem attacks.

Outside which the food exports are very well document... and this is something you know, and you just kept dodging around the fact the food was removed in a game of semantics of HOW the food was removed.  

Which coincidentally is when Ad Hominem reasoning actually IS valid.  

Additionally,  what's said to try and dismiss your arguements.  We both already know it's there.  Hell, the wikipedia page i provided has exact records.  
It was to explain why people rarely do bother to argue with you.   Because you specifically aren't credible.
If someone like Khan  were to make an arguement.  That's be worth argueing with, because he'd actually care.
Or hell even someone like Realmafoo, who while often not knowing his facts... actually wants to learn.
As for you, you just like to stir shit up and support stuff you know isn't even true, even in the face of blinding specific evidence.   A videotape recording of Stalin saying "Lets starve the Ukranians" likely wouldn't serve as proper proof for you because you'd argue that any timestamp indicators could of been added by the west, or pro west government officials, or that he could of said to do that but the government policy never got put into place.
Again, this isn't meant to invalidate your arguement (it's already been invalidated) this is specifically an invalidation of you specficially as someoen who it's worth argueing with.  
I've really humored you more then enough when we both know i'm correct, and you are now staring directly at the cold hard numbers infront of you.  (Which you've probably known this entire time.)
I'm sure the next leg of this anyway was just going to be you argueing genocide doesn't fit because it more targeted a specific class, aka the Kulaks then it did Ukranians as a whole... Ukrainians as a whole being more a side casualty.  And that Stalin specifically demanded economic classes  be left out of the official definition of geneocide.  (Always being ironic since that would be the one thing Marx and Lenin would of wanted in there and fought hard to be included.)
Really don't have time for another silly semantic dance.

Kazs, do you really want me to go through all this opinionated crap and personal attacks? :D For starters I suggest you use line breaks, second "brevity is the soul of wit".

The only thesis I've managed to dig up from this is smth about food export, elaborate it so we actually would have smth to talk about.

UPD: And do not forget to reference sources! If you so damn credbile unlike me :D even though it seems I'm the only one who's providing actual historical documents as of now.


Weird, it DID have line breaks in the post.  Either way... you linked Wikipedia... and then so did i.  

That specifically refrenced government data that showed the exportation of food.  Data that's actual pretty credible since thanks to the big 50 year coverup.  You can be sure isn't fabricated, since that's the kind of thing they'd generally try and NOT make up.

 

Which you just ingored.