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Forums - Politics Discussion - What does Putin want with Ukraine

 

What is his end state

Annex Ukraine As a whole 337 40.60%
 
Annex Crimea 286 34.46%
 
Defend Russian People Fro... 184 22.17%
 
Total:807

Thanks you, Kasz. Talking to you is as enjoyable as banging the head against the wall :D And mind you, it is as productive.

Kasz216 said:

Oh I mean nothing to refute on the holomodor thing.  This stuff is just something i'm not inclined to dig into due to your general lack of reliability whe it comes to these conspiracy theory like angles as shown when you were completely wrong on the Yakymenko statements, not even knowing when he assumed power.

 

As for the actual act... with the grain,  do I speak russian?   It's exports after what would closest translate to "Food Requistion" i'd guess.   I'm doing this from memory.

It's not like it's some rare unknown policy or anything.  The tax was something like 40% of expected totals, with yields inflated to the point of where, basically farmers couldn't pay their shit, villiages got blacklisted, and then were basically fucked.

Of course, you really haven't addressed why they'd keep a famine top secret for 50 years punishable by prison time if it was mentioned... or blacklisting or any of that.

Yes, "food requisition", aka "продразверстка". Has been used twice, in 1916 and 1919, but I guess you're referring to the one signed by SNK (Soviet of People's Comissars, bolshevik's government basically). A quote from Great Soviet Encyclopedia (google-translate it if you want):

Декретом СНК от 11 января 1919 П. была введена на всей территории Советской России, позднее — на Украине и в Белоруссии (1919), Туркестане и Сибири (1920). В соответствии с постановлением Наркомпрода от 13 января 1919 о порядке развёрстки государственные плановые задания исчислялись на основе погубернских данных о размере посевных площадей, урожайности, запасов прошлых лет. В губерниях производилась развёрстка по уездам, волостям, селениям, а затем между отдельными крестьянскими хозяйствами. Сбор продуктов осуществляли органы Наркомпрода, продотряды при активной помощи комбедов и местных Советов. П. явилась выражением продовольственной диктатуры рабочего класса и беднейшего крестьянства.

May I ask what exactly food requisition of 1919 has to do with the famine of 1932-33, so called Holodomor?

I severely doubt your knowledge about this piece of history if you manage to f**k up facts this badly. I severely doubt producivity of this conversation since as of now the only "arguments" have been used against me are ad hominem, moving goalspots and opitionated crap not supported by references. May I ask for smth like I did to Badassbab? E.g. here's your opinion, here's my fact -- my fact beats your opinion. At least Badassbab was smart enough to abandon the thread and keep silence on things he has very vague understanding of. While you... well, I said it previously questions of faith and religion are not my field of expertise, educate yourself and get back to this converstaion if you want.



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mai said:


Yes, "food requisition", aka "продразверстка". Has been used twice, in 1916 and 1919, but I guess you're referring to the one signed by SNK (Soviet of People's Comissars, bolshevik's government basically). 
A quote from Great Soviet Encyclopedia (google-translate it if you want):

Декретом СНК от 11 января 1919 П. была введена на всей территории Советской России, позднее — на Украине и в Белоруссии (1919), Туркестане и Сибири (1920). В соответствии с постановлением Наркомпрода от 13 января 1919 о порядке развёрстки государственные плановые задания исчислялись на основе погубернских данных о размере посевных площадей, урожайности, запасов прошлых лет. В губерниях производилась развёрстка по уездам, волостям, селениям, а затем между отдельными крестьянскими хозяйствами. Сбор продуктов осуществляли органы Наркомпрода, продотряды при активной помощи комбедов и местных Советов. П. явилась выражением продовольственной диктатуры рабочего класса и беднейшего крестьянства.

May I ask what exactly food requisition of 1919 has to do with the famine of 1932-33, so called Holodomor?

I severely doubt your knowledge about this piece of history if you manage to f**k up facts this badly. I severely doubt producivity of this conversation since as of now the only "arguments" have been used against me are ad hominem, moving goalspots and opitionated crap not supported by references. May I ask for smth like I did to Badassbab? E.g. here's your opinion, here's my fact -- my fact beats your opinion. At least Badassbab was smart enough to abandon the thread and keep silence on things he has very vague understanding of. While you... well, I said it previously questions of faith and religion are not my field of expertise, educate yourself and get back to this converstaion if you want.

Only twice and never again, eh?    As opposed to being something that happens every single year.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-to-abolish-grain-requisitioning/219378.html

Now i had to bother to look it up.

Again, the fact that it was 40% of total grain should of made it pretty clear what I was talking about.

Playing dumb for the sake of playing dumb?

Thanks for proving my point on your lack of credibility.



Kasz216 said:

Only twice and never again, eh? 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-to-abolish-grain-requisitioning/219378.html

 

Again, the fact that it was 40% of total grain should of made it pretty clear what I was talking about.

Playing dumb for the sake of playing dumb?

Thanks for proving my point on your lack of credibility.

Quote please.

And please logic chain how that proves "delibarate genocide", that was intial point.



something



mai said:
Kasz216 said:

Only twice and never again, eh? 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-to-abolish-grain-requisitioning/219378.html

 

Again, the fact that it was 40% of total grain should of made it pretty clear what I was talking about.

Playing dumb for the sake of playing dumb?

Thanks for proving my point on your lack of credibility.

Quote please.

And please logic chain how that proves "delibarate genocide", that was intial point.

Quote on what? That the policy existed?  How you aren't aware of a yearly giagantic food requistion that went on for 75 years, I'm not sure... and you say I have a poor grasp of the facts.    Jesus.  To quoute  "I severely doubt your knowledge about this piece of history if you manage to f**k up facts this badly. "

Again, this is why I try not to bother to argue with you.  I have to go out of my way to post an article refrencing a policy that you damn well should of known existed.  As if someone asked "That law that lets the government take money from people who make money" and I pretended the Income tax didn't exist because you didn't specifically say "Income Tax".

You're a "true patriot" as you would put it.  You don't care about truth, or what the truth is,  to you conversations like this are just another silly politics game.  My bet is, you don't even believe what you are argueing, you just want to see somone go through a point by point just to see if people can. 

It's like when people ask for scientific proof of evolution.  They don't give a fuck they just want to see people do it.

 

 

As for a logic chain... I'm not sure how to even create  a chain... it's one link... but i'll try.  

 

Famine + continued deliberate taking food away from those people = deaths due to famine proportionally greater in that area then elselwere = deliberate genocide?


Nevermind adding on to it +covering up it was happening+retricting ukranians movements+refusing foreign aid+continueing to export grain after knowing it was happening+covering it up until the 1980's.

It should be pretty obvious to see, considering all the conspiracy theoryish things you grasp to that have far less proof.  (Although it's easy to have less proof then basically "all the proof".)

 



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Kasz216 said:How you aren't aware of a yearly giagantic food requistion that went on for 75 years, I'm not sure... and you say I have a poor grasp of the facts.    Jesus.  

 

you crazy?



Kasz216 said:

Quote on what? That the policy existed?

A quote from the text you referred that talks about actual policy in place, do not force your opponent to do all the legwork for you.

Food requisition wasn't in place in, say, 1930-31, the first year of harvest well below expected. Relationships between kolkhoz'es and Soviet government were based on contract agreements at the time (eventually replaced by compulsory deliveries).

UPD: hell, even wiki has an article about it: Contracting in USSR. As I've said, first eduacte yourself.



http://www.eutimes.net/2014/05/us-refuses-to-take-back-13-dead-cia-spies-killed-in-ukraine/
wow. just wow



Sharu said:
http://www.eutimes.net/2014/05/us-refuses-to-take-back-13-dead-cia-spies-killed-in-ukraine/
wow. just wow

EU Times is yellow press, I wounldn't have trusted it.



mai said:
Kasz216 said:

Quote on what? That the policy existed?

A quote from the text you referred that talks about actual policy in place, do not force your opponent to do all the legwork for you.

Food requisition wasn't in place in, say, 1930-31, the first year of harvest well below expected. Relationships between kolkhoz'es and Soviet government were based on contract agreements at the time (eventually replaced by compulsory deliveries).

UPD: hell, even wiki has an article about it: Contracting in USSR. As I've said, first eduacte yourself.


Well if we're using Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor#Extensive_export_of_grain_and_other_food

quit being silly and argueing things you don't believe and know aren't true.