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Forums - Politics Discussion - 19F – The Night Venezuela Finally Imploded

maximus22 said:
Mr Khan said:

The point being that the Egyptian opposition hasn't taken up those arms. If they had, it *would* be a civil war, which is no good for anyone.

The implication that the people should be fighting back with weapons in this case is misguided at best, because it only fuels the fire in high-tension situations like this, especially given that the people's weapons are never going to match the government's. It's merely a recipe for slaughter rather than some imagined noble rebellion, much like the pipe-dream of the American right that all those guns out there would make any sort of difference if they decided to revolt against the Feds.


That kind of thinking is the only thing that gives tyrannical governments any power whatsoever.  I guess no matter how many times the opposite is proven there will always be people like you thinking that the people are no match for their government, even when the people are as well armed as those of the U.S.  Even with the largest and most technologically advanced military on earth the U.S. would stand absolutely zero chance at quelling a rebellion if it happened.  Sheer numbers alone are far too overwhelming.  Add to that the fact that that well over half the population has access to a gun if needed and what you just said becomes laughable.  A complete joke and nothing more.

A complete joke indeed, but for the wannabe rebels. How would it stand "zero" chance, how is that opinion grounded in any reality outside of a militia-issued pamphlet or infowars.com?

Especially given that many tyrannical governments were overthrown through purely peaceful means, and those countries tend to be much better off than the ones where the government was overthrown through violent means. Compare Indonesia to, say, Libya. You don't need weapons to overthrow government tyranny, and you sure as hell don't make things better by trying.

The *only* exception really is cases like Rwanda, where the government had an express goal of killing a subset of the population, and even then it would have been better had the military intervention that stopped the Hutus been foreign, rather than the domestic, Tutsi-run RPF, which turned a horrific genocide into a still-troubling mass refugee crisis. Libya, too, it was unfortunately clear that Qaddafi was going for the full-on massacre, but that was already after the armed rebellion had gotten underway (they were losing, too, if other actual militaries had not gotten involved).



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Im with Khan here
we dont need any kind of weapon but our honor and will to change what we think its wrong
just look at the numbers unarmed people might very well outnumber armed people by a factor of...1000?



supernihilist said:
Im with Khan here
we dont need any kind of weapon but our honor and will to change what we think its wrong
just look at the numbers unarmed people might very well outnumber armed people by a factor of...1000?

Numbers are a part of it, another one is that it's much easier to convince your own soldiers to shoot those guys with guns rather than telling them to gun down an unarmed crowd. Similarly, an armed opposition is inevitably going to cause collateral casualties of their own, and attract extremist elements in a lot of cases, making it easy for the government to paint them as mere terrorists (as in the Syrian case, where it did unfortunately end up attracting a lot of terrorists, or in Mali, where the Taureg's cause was outright hijacked by AQM)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

maximus22 said:
This is absolutely horrifying and heart breaking. Yet another reason why I for one will never let my government disarm me.

Yeah, exactly! Bring up your tanks, bombs, helicopters and warplanes, you evil goverment - my gun will show you!!!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I always find that argument quite funny. No matter how liberal your national gun laws might be, your government will always have the bigger sticks.



No manches no sabia que estaba tan mal Venezuela :(



                          

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osed125 said:
Kasz216 said:
osed125 said:

The management is SO bad that 10 years ago Venezuela was in second place of countries who exported oil to the U.S, last time I checked it was number 9.

And even more dire, Venezuela is importing gasoline (let that sink in for a moment).


Well it's not like they HAVE to export the oil to the US to make money.

They could export it to all kinds of non-US allied nations and make money.

It's just they more or less decided to give it away to various countries for political benefits that never really manifested.

It was just an example of the bad management, of course Venezuela exports to other countries, they have to survived somehow.

Heck PDVSA (the government oil company) used to be in the top 5 best oil companies in world 10 years ago...now it isn't even charted.


Yeah, that's more or less my point.  Chavez and Maduro could have made a bunch of money even with their obvious anti-US bent.

They just chose not to.  Well money for their people anyway.  The chavez family is well flush all of a sudden.



Mr Khan said:
maximus22 said:
Mr Khan said:
 

The point being that the Egyptian opposition hasn't taken up those arms. If they had, it *would* be a civil war, which is no good for anyone.

The implication that the people should be fighting back with weapons in this case is misguided at best, because it only fuels the fire in high-tension situations like this, especially given that the people's weapons are never going to match the government's. It's merely a recipe for slaughter rather than some imagined noble rebellion, much like the pipe-dream of the American right that all those guns out there would make any sort of difference if they decided to revolt against the Feds.


That kind of thinking is the only thing that gives tyrannical governments any power whatsoever.  I guess no matter how many times the opposite is proven there will always be people like you thinking that the people are no match for their government, even when the people are as well armed as those of the U.S.  Even with the largest and most technologically advanced military on earth the U.S. would stand absolutely zero chance at quelling a rebellion if it happened.  Sheer numbers alone are far too overwhelming.  Add to that the fact that that well over half the population has access to a gun if needed and what you just said becomes laughable.  A complete joke and nothing more.

A complete joke indeed, but for the wannabe rebels. How would it stand "zero" chance, how is that opinion grounded in any reality outside of a militia-issued pamphlet or infowars.com?

Especially given that many tyrannical governments were overthrown through purely peaceful means, and those countries tend to be much better off than the ones where the government was overthrown through violent means. Compare Indonesia to, say, Libya. You don't need weapons to overthrow government tyranny, and you sure as hell don't make things better by trying.

The *only* exception really is cases like Rwanda, where the government had an express goal of killing a subset of the population, and even then it would have been better had the military intervention that stopped the Hutus been foreign, rather than the domestic, Tutsi-run RPF, which turned a horrific genocide into a still-troubling mass refugee crisis. Libya, too, it was unfortunately clear that Qaddafi was going for the full-on massacre, but that was already after the armed rebellion had gotten underway (they were losing, too, if other actual militaries had not gotten involved).

 

Okay first let me be clear; successful rebellions include peaceful ones.  Never once did I say that you need weapons to overthrow a governement or that violence is the only way to achieve a revolution so don't put words in my mouth.  Peaceful terms should always be pursued without exception (just so I'm on record) until it is no longer an option.  However, when a government answers protests with downright murder, such as the case here it seems, then isn't it better for these people to be armed themselves and have a chance to fight back rather than surrender or die?

I don't really want to take a trip through history  but that is the reality that my opinion is grounded in.  There are plenty examples of both violent and non-violent successful rebellions throughout history (revolutions of 1989, American revolution, Bolshevik revolution to name a few) do I really need to list them?  

 

 

 



ArnoldRimmer said:
maximus22 said:
This is absolutely horrifying and heart breaking. Yet another reason why I for one will never let my government disarm me.

Yeah, exactly! Bring up your tanks, bombs, helicopters and warplanes, you evil goverment - my gun will show you!!!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I always find that argument quite funny. No matter how liberal your national gun laws might be, your government will always have the bigger sticks.


It's fine.  I should probably switch to sarcasm myself as it's starting to feel ridiculous arguing this but here goes.  It's called guerilla warfare and has been proven to work too many times to need defending.  I can go to my local sporting goods store and make an anti tank bomb.  Also, any of those weapons can be stolen and used against them.  One of the advantages to vastly superior numbers you might say; which by the way is often preferable to bigger sticks.

Man this thread has gone south.



Mr Khan said:
Mummelmann said:
Mr Khan said:
maximus22 said:
This is absolutely horrifying and heart breaking. Yet another reason why I for one will never let my government disarm me.

Yes, because being able to shoot back stops them from wanting to shoot you. Instead of Egypt you get South Sudan. Good idea.


Whoa! You're saying that it's not a good idea for a nation for all citizens to be armed? What a refreshing point of view, 85% of my friends from the US are dead set (possilby literally) on the right to bear arms. If someone tries to tell them that arming an entire country might not be a terrific idea, especially in a country with rather vast social differences and problems and no small amount of cultural opposition, the only response one gets is; "But it is my constitutional right etc etc etc."

Just because something is allowed doesn't mean it's a great idea.

Studies show that as far as crime goes, it either doesn't make a difference or helps in a small way (that is, more gun availability), but for use in political situations, arming the opposition absolutely, positively makes things far worse than they were, because it gives the oppressors an excuse to gun them down. If the protestors were shooting back, it'd be civil war already, whereas a peaceful solution is still perfectly possible (Ukraine just declared a "truce" in their present unrest, for instance).

Eh, i would argue that guns are a complete non-factor.

Revolution vs peaceful protests instead mostly being a cultural thing based on particular situation.

It's not like the Ukraine is in an area where it's hard to get illegal guns.  Hell, they've considered getting rid of their gun laws as early as 2012 specifically because of how easy it is to own a gun.

and the gun ownership levels of the Ukraine are about half what the government owns.  There are plenty of guns out there to start a shooting revolution

The Reason it hasn't... is cultural.  Protesters pretty rarely start shooting contests.

Shooting revolutions start... when the governments start shooting because they don't have proper control.

Shooting revolutions don't happen in places where guns are around, because, there is nobody to shoot back.


The protestors get shot... and that's basically it... unless they get some support from the government.

Soldiers don't like to shoot their own people armed or not.



With my boyfriend being Venezuelan, this shit hits far too close to home....the stories he tells me of when he was there and the stories his friends tell me now are simply far too much. I knew it would be bad when Maduro won rigged the elections, but I didn't think it would get THIS bad. The people have all the rights in rising up because the situation was far too unsustainable, and frankly there's no hope for Venezulea as long as Chavism is still in power. I'm not convinced the people's protests will take them down, but I damned sure hope they will

Been going with my bf to protests in the Venezuelan embassy here in Argentina, to show our support for them, and no matter what the motherfucking bitch we have as president says, you have our full support here in Argentina, for these authoritarian regimes disguised as populism to finally end (luckily, ours ends in 2015, without fail)

As a great hashtag in twitter says, NICOLAS PAL COÑO TE VAS!  (with my bf's venezuelan accent)