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Forums - Gaming - Developers are thinking AAA development very risk and jumping to risk free Indie Development [AAA games doomed]

 

How do you buy AAA games?

Good reviewed games only 27 23.28%
 
Good reviewed day one, av... 10 8.62%
 
Good reviewed day one, average/poor no buy 2 1.72%
 
Don't care reviews, depe... 46 39.66%
 
Don't care reviews, depends on developers 9 7.76%
 
Don't care reviews, depends on franchise 8 6.90%
 
Don't care reviews, but ... 14 12.07%
 
Total:116
Wright said:
aryu said:


Why are you getting all aggressive? I told you my definition of indie is different to yours. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. You should stop taking it to heart. Games like FEZ, Braid, Limbo and Super Meat Boy didn't get the same backing as Heavy Rain and that's the reason why I consider them to be indie and not Heavy Rain.


Fez went through MS marketing, and Phil Fish himself complained that the marketing campaign "had been poor", which was the reason for low sales.

And the game still got indie awards.

Super Meat Boy also got promotions from Microsoft. Braid is the only one that stood alone.

 

So I'm guessing by your definition that Fez and Super Meat Boy are not indie games, right? Ah, wait, is the amount of money on advertising what makes a game stop being indie! Stupid me.

You are, aren't you.

If you can't stop being aggressive, then that is the correct way to approach you.



PS3, PS4, PSV, Wii U, 3DS + 3DS XL Owner.

PlayStation Nation

NNID: aminryu1

I need to stop buying games...

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Pemalite said:

As for the last line on your post, it's difficult to understand it, could you elaborate? From what I can understand you're basically saying that AAA games don't benefit which is ironic, because even AAA games on Steam have benefitted from the sales, hence why Valve is happy to discount it's own franchises which have sold millions of copies already.

Valve is happy to discount their own games or give them away for free because they are now in the business of pushing games as a service and their own platform and, besides, their games are all pretty old anyway and have long since become profitable. While Steam has done a lot to revive PC gaming, it's tough to argue that everything is coming up roses. Sure, some individual developers have done pretty well thanks to Steam sales, but there is a growing problem with these sales devaluing games. Most developers can expect few to no sales unless their game is currently discounted and featured. So It's true that a single successful promotion can make an indie game an overnight success, but it also makes things increasingly dicey as the consumer mentality becomes that it's not worth paying full price for any game and developers are therefore less able to budget based on how much their game "should" sell for. I mean, shifting a million units at half price is a lot less revenue than shifting a million at full price.

There is a reason that some big budget games like GTA 5 only show up after soaking up all those $60 sales on consoles (at least, I presume it eventually will turn up on PC), and others like Red Dead Redemption never come to PC at all.



Wright said:
Porcupine_I said:
Wright said:


I still care though :(

Doesn't Indie come from "Independant" ? I don't think you can call anything a Indie game that involves funding and a  exclusive contract with a publisher.


So if I fund my own game and create it from scratch with a brand new built independent studio, and then ask Nintendo to publish the game once its finished, the game is not indie?

Then it's a Indie game, but if you asked Nintendo first if they want to publish your game and make a contract with them, then i would say it's debatable.



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

Wright said:
biglittlesps said:

However, it could be not true for every game published by Sony.


So you're basically saying that:

 

a) Sony lies from time to time.

b) Heavy Rain is indeed indie.

 

I agree with both.

They said they funded the game but not explictly the development cost, however most of the total cost for that game was provided by Sony. And without Sony support that game would not have seen the light and got the success. Not any game used the kind of technical stanrdards for developing the title when heavry rain came.



GAMING is not about spending hours to pass/waste our time just for fun,

its a Feeling/Experience about a VIRTUAL WORLD we can never be in real, and realizing some of our dreams (also creating new ones).

So, Feel Emotions, Experience Adventure/Action, Challenge Game, Solve puzzles and Have fun.

PlayStation is about all-round "New experiences" using new IP's to provide great diversity for everyone.

Xbox is always about Online and Shooting.

Nintendo is always about Fun games and milking IP's.

badgenome said:
Pemalite said:

As for the last line on your post, it's difficult to understand it, could you elaborate? From what I can understand you're basically saying that AAA games don't benefit which is ironic, because even AAA games on Steam have benefitted from the sales, hence why Valve is happy to discount it's own franchises which have sold millions of copies already.

Valve is happy to discount their own games or give them away for free because they are now in the business of pushing games as a service and their own platform and, besides, their games are all pretty old anyway and have long since become profitable. While Steam has done a lot to revive PC gaming, it's tough to argue that everything is coming up roses. Sure, some individual developers have done pretty well thanks to Steam sales, but there is a growing problem with these sales devaluing games. Most developers can expect few to no sales unless their game is currently discounted and featured. So It's true that a single successful promotion can make an indie game an overnight success, but it also makes things increasingly dicey as the consumer mentality becomes that it's not worth paying full price for any game and developers are therefore less able to budget based on how much their game "should" sell for. I mean, shifting a million units at half price is a lot less revenue than shifting a million at full price.

There is a reason that some big budget games like GTA 5 only show up after soaking up all those $60 sales on consoles (at least, I presume it eventually will turn up on PC), and others like Red Dead Redemption never come to PC at all.

I agree with you, this is what i mean too. Valve making the consumers to rethink about the game prices with their deals/sales which makes AAA games to face problems in future in 60$ pricing(even though development costs of AAA games will be higher than last gen). Everyone buys many games from steam sales but they wont play most of the games they buy at all due to their limited time in daily life its not possible for them play and money is wasted by consumer here by purchasing the game which he doesnt play at all. The consumer could have purchased the one game which he likes to play and more money could have gone gone to the right developer who the consumer thinks deserves his money because he liked the game. And the consumer will wait for similar deals in future and avoid buying the games at full price.



GAMING is not about spending hours to pass/waste our time just for fun,

its a Feeling/Experience about a VIRTUAL WORLD we can never be in real, and realizing some of our dreams (also creating new ones).

So, Feel Emotions, Experience Adventure/Action, Challenge Game, Solve puzzles and Have fun.

PlayStation is about all-round "New experiences" using new IP's to provide great diversity for everyone.

Xbox is always about Online and Shooting.

Nintendo is always about Fun games and milking IP's.

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Where is the "I wait until they show up in PS+" option in the poll?



Why does it have to be all-in or all-out? Why cant there be ahappy medium just like it used to onthe ps1 and ps2 eras?



Nem said:
Why does it have to be all-in or all-out? Why cant there be ahappy medium just like it used to onthe ps1 and ps2 eras?

Because a game with good enough graphics and presentation to not get panned by reviewers and looked down by gamers that sells 1M isn't profitable anymore.



Nem said:
Why does it have to be all-in or all-out? Why cant there be ahappy medium just like it used to onthe ps1 and ps2 eras?


AAA Ps1 and Ps2 titles tended to cost 1 to 2 million or less. Today's triple AAA titles cost 20 million and up and actually the price of games is lower because of inflation. As well games in general don't sell more that much more than they did during that era. They cost 20 times more to make but games don't sell 20 times more than they used to, almost all games will not crack the 5 million mark. Inflation wise games should be $70-80 to be fair to developers. Developers are getting gipped by this model, we win by paying less but at the expense of the game makers.

Today's triple AAA model is financial sucide except for like 3 or 4 publishers who have to do annual sequels with re-used assets. (EA, Activision, Ubisoft, etc.)



biglittlesps said:
Pemalite said:
biglittlesps said:
Pemalite said:
Price is a big factor.
The cheaper the price, the less weight people give to reviews and more games they buy.

Also, sales like what are on Steam... Actually increases profits, Valve stated this before, but after a sale, the sales rate is increased from before the sale, thus during and after the sale, the developer gets more money, this is something Microsoft and Sony needs to push for, no one does a games sale like Valve does and it really is good for everyone.

People only have finite sized wallets, prices for games have increased slowly, massively with all the DLC/Expansions/Pay Walls, just unfortunately some things needs to give, usually the first is less game purchases, more obscure developers end up missing out.


Yes, Price is a factor but you should realize that there are many people who are depending on gaming industry in retail games which is why it has high price compared steam digital sales which serves only three (Steam, developers and publishers). If the Console do the same then lot of people around the world will lose jobs and only Developers/Publishers will earn profits. Consoles are doing as much as they can to match digitial prices without impact on retails with their deals/sales every month.

Steam may have increased Indie sales with their deals but not many AAA sales compared to Consoles have mostly.


Retail stores are partly at fault.
Over the years before Steam came along they constantly reduced the amount of shelf space dedicated to PC games, it actually reached a stupid state, piracy began to run rampant.
Then Steam came along and solved all of the PC gamers problems.

Besides, Brick and Mortar stores may have stopped supporting PC games, but dozens of online business's have sprung up dedicated to that target demographic, like Green Man Gaming, Gamers Gate, Good Old Games and the plethera of CD Key websites.
It's Capitalism at it's finest, if there is demand, then that demand will be met by new business's, if you neglect the demand and don't change with the market conditions and fail, then you deserve to fail, that shouldn't be something that's prevented by government bailouts or special market conditions.

Besides, the "digital" price matching is pretty laughable, you looked at a new released game on the Xbox Live Network? It's usually the same price or more expensive than the version you can find in store, digital should be cheaper by default, there is no packaging, shipping, manufacturing or other extra's like manuals, guides and such that you're getting.

As for the last line on your post, it's difficult to understand it, could you elaborate? From what I can understand you're basically saying that AAA games don't benefit which is ironic, because even AAA games on Steam have benefitted from the sales, hence why Valve is happy to discount it's own franchises which have sold millions of copies already.

They do for a reason and its to balance the Retail and Digital. If they go cheaper in digital most of them will buy digital games then their retail sales will be less so the people who depend on this will be doomed. Gaming industry should provide help as many as possible with jobs instead of cutting the middle man and giving the games very cheap in digital.

AAA games benefit from steam sales but not makes great returns like Console sales does for the developers. Consoles can't do same sales very fast like Steam because it will make the retail games to be fade away along with the business of retailers and manufacturers who depend on them( which PC does not has any more like you said due to piracy). 

Xbox Live may not have but did you see PSN sales every weeek? They are providing very reasonable deals and sometimes great ones which happens every week.

You're missing the point, by balancing the retail and digital, they're trying to defy one of the amazing concepts of capitalism.
Capitalism when it's in full swing and there are no influences brings consumers more choice, lower prices and more convenience because of increased competition which also spurrs on more innovation.
There shouldn't be any help for the middle man, let them fail if they can't compete, when capitalism is working in full swing with no interferance, it will create more jobs as more competitors can enter the market.

As for AAA games not making great returns like they do on console? Well. PC games are more profitable to begin with.
For instance a PC developer if they so wished, can release a game on none of the major networks.
Wanna know how much Microsoft and Sony steal out of every game sold? You're looking at something like 30%, then they have to pay to have DLC and patches put out too.
For example EA sell their digital games via their own digital store origin on the PC, thus every game sold is 30% more money in their pockets, they don't have additional patches and dlc costs on top of that either, thus in turn more money trickles to the developer.
The consumer also pays (Without additional discounting) $10 less on PC than on Console for a new released game and the Developer can still end up with more money than from the equivalent sale on console.

As for PSN sales every week... Maaaaate... You really don't know what a sale is do you?
Steams sales discounts thousands of items/games all at once, remember Steam has more games than the Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 and the majority of it is discounted, let that sink in for a moment.
That's then compounded by mid week and weekend sales.
You also have other sales pop-up all the time.
At this current time, 68 games/DLC/addons/stuff are discounted on Steam.
The Autumn/Spring Sale is only a few months away (Again, thousands of stuff will be discounted.)

Then you have other sales from Humble Bundle, Green Man Gaming, Gamers Gate, Direct 2 Drive, Gamefly, Origin, uPlay, Good Old Games, Desura, Amazon and probably dozens more, basically, if you're buying a PC game at full price, then you really are doing it wrong.
The consoles can't compete on the PC's heavy discounting because of the much larger amounts of competition, again, thanks to capitalism, there arne't any restrictions to appease the brick and mortar and that's the way it should be, it's better for everyone.




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