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Forums - General - Is science too much about assumptions?

Tagging for later reading, this is some interesting stuff.



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TheJimbo1234 said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
TheJimbo1234 said:
pauluzzz1981 said:

Let's get this clear. I love science. I'm reading alot about science, if i can understand it. But i was watching a program on discovery about the stars, dark matter, anti-materie and wormholes. I love the theories, but aren't they going too far? I was listening to a scientist, pressumably one of the smartest people of the world and he was talking nonsense. He was talking about alternate universes and that we can create them in the future with some device. My only question was, where do we leave another universe?

Look, i know, i'm not so smart and we need people with vision. But where is the line between interesting theory and woohoo??


Maths.

Their crazy ideas are backed up by solid maths.

HOWEVER, these ideas make vast amounts of assumptions which we have no idea are true or not. Mathmatically they are sound, but if you somehow mathmatically show the sky to be pink, that does not mean it will be.


Actually it would. The colour of the sky is blue because of the elements in our atmosphere are mostly oxygen and nitrogen. An increase in other elements can change the colour of the sky, so if you have a statistic that tells you a certain element will increase a certain percentage, you can predict the colour of the sky....ofcourse there is never a sudden change except when volcanos erupt, which may cause parts of the sky to change to colours such as green temporarily.

I believe this will also be the leading method to determine whether exoplenets have a habitable envrionment or not, once we get telescopes that are good enough.

What I am implying though is if someone presumed that the sky was pink due to a "pinkon" particle that they believed existed as it fitted neatly into their equation. Of course though, no such thing is real and this is what many theoretical quantum physicists have most likely done - made neat little mathematically sound packages to fit into their equation as currently they can not discover what is meant to be there, but merely guess.


i  agree with this. Mathemetical equations are only equal because they use some element that is a theory, like dark matter or 9 dimensions or wormholes. I dont understand it so my opinion is based on that. For the people who can understand it. For instance,is carbon dating a fact? And there is also a theory that lightspeed is slowing down at a certain point?



pauluzzz1981 said:
...


i  agree with this. Mathemetical equations are only equal because they use some element that is a theory, like dark matter or 9 dimensions or wormholes. I dont understand it so my opinion is based on that. For the people who can understand it. For instance,is carbon dating a fact? And there is also a theory that lightspeed is slowing down at a certain point?

Dark matter - Lots of evidence, but not 100%
9 dimensions - no evidence, mathematically sound
wormholes - no evidence, mathematically sound
carbon dating - Overwhelming evidence

Could you clarify about the light slowing down?



Netyaroze said:
pauluzzz1981 said:

Let's get this clear. I love science. I'm reading alot about science, if i can understand it. But i was watching a program on discovery about the stars, dark matter, anti-materie and wormholes. I love the theories, but aren't they going too far? I was listening to a scientist, pressumably one of the smartest people of the world and he was talking nonsense. He was talking about alternate universes and that we can create them in the future with some device. My only question was, where do we leave another universe?

Look, i know, i'm not so smart and we need people with vision. But where is the line between interesting theory and woohoo??

I don`t think you were able to accurately judge what you saw. Those Sciency tv series are made to amaze people and obviously only unimaginable things will blow the viewers mind. He was just speculating this has nothing to do with science and it isn`t how science works. That you can create another universe theoretically if this and that is correct are just logical conclusions based on the theories if you had some parameters fullfilled. Science is about small steps discovering the truth bit by bit and correcting theories constantly. Obviously scientist realize that they have something fundamentally wrong. Because they can`t bring relativity and quantum theory together eventhough both theories are proven 100 of times to be correct. Yet they play by totally different rules that have nothing to do with each other.  

 

The multiverse theory is just a way to explain things were we haven`t found an answer and actually its one of the better theories out there. As it does explain quite alot. It would explain the uncertainty of the quantum states and why they act as irationally as they do. And some other things we saw in the background radiation inflation it would also explain why our universe is finetuned for life to emerge without having to use god as an explanation. 

 

Also in what way is this discussion not suited for work ?

That's what i mean right there. It is proven in the knowledge we now have,so how accurate is that? How reliable is what we know now? And if it's different in 20 years, how important is that? 



DarkWraith said:
show me where it says assume in the scientific method. only assumption is that it works which is demonstrably true by applied science - medicine works, computers compute, planes fly.

1. Observe
2. Hypothesize
3. Test
4. Results
5. Conclusions

any assumption is negated by TEST, you can assume contrary to the results but the results are not subject to your whims only subject to nature it

Nice fact. But you know well as i do that science is making assumptions and state them as near truths. Like the big bang theory. 



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pauluzzz1981 said:
DarkWraith said:
...

Nice fact. But you know well as i do that science is making assumptions and state them as near truths. Like the big bang theory. 

The big bang theory has plenty of evidence, and none of the alternatives do. Scientists are open to better theories existing. Feel free to disprove the big bang by showing it's impossible physically or mathematically.

It seems to me like you just don't trust it or carbon dating because it contradicts your religion.



Soleron said:
pauluzzz1981 said:
...


i  agree with this. Mathemetical equations are only equal because they use some element that is a theory, like dark matter or 9 dimensions or wormholes. I dont understand it so my opinion is based on that. For the people who can understand it. For instance,is carbon dating a fact? And there is also a theory that lightspeed is slowing down at a certain point?

Dark matter - Lots of evidence, but not 100%
9 dimensions - no evidence, mathematically sound
wormholes - no evidence, mathematically sound
carbon dating - Overwhelming evidence

Could you clarify about the light slowing down?

A team of Australian scientists has proposed that the speed of light may not be a constant, a revolutionary idea that could unseat one of the most cherished laws of modern physics -- Einstein's theory of relativity.

The team, led by theoretical physicist Paul Davies of Sydney's Macquarie University, say it is possible that the speed of light has slowed over billions of years.

If so, physicists will have to rethink many of their basic ideas about the laws of the universe.

"That means giving up the theory of relativity and E=mc squared and all that sort of stuff," Davies told Reuters.

"But of course it doesn't mean we just throw the books in the bin, because it's in the nature of scientific revolution that the old theories become incorporated in the new ones."

Davies, and astrophysicists Tamara Davis and Charles Lineweaver from the University of New South Wales published the proposal in the Aug. 8 edition of scientific journal Nature.

The suggestion that the speed of light can change is based on data collected by UNSW astronomer John Webb, who posed a conundrum when he found that light from a distant quasar, a star-like object, had absorbed the wrong type of photons from interstellar clouds on its 12 billion year journey to earth.

Davies said fundamentally Webb's observations meant that the structure of atoms emitting quasar light was slightly but ever so significantly different to the structure of atoms in humans.

The discrepancy could only be explained if either the electron charge, or the speed of light, had changed.

"But two of the cherished laws of the universe are the law that electron charge shall not change and that the speed of light shall not change, so whichever way you look at it we're in trouble," Davies said.

To establish which of the two constants might not be that constant after all, Davies' team resorted to the study of black holes, mysterious astronomical bodies that suck in stars and other galactic features.

They also applied another dogma of physics, the second law of of thermodynamics, which Davies summarises as "you can't get something for nothing."

After considering that a change in the electron charge over time would violate the sacrosanct second law of thermodynamics, they concluded that the only option was to challenge the constancy of the speed of light.

More study of quasar light is needed in order to validate Webb's observations, and to back up the proposal that light speed may vary, a theory Davies stresses represents only the first chink in the armour of the theory of relativity.

In the meantime, the implications are as unclear as the unexplored depths of the universe themselves.

"When one of the cornerstones of physics collapses, it's not obvious what you hang onto and what you discard," Davies said.

"If what we're seeing is the beginnings of a paradigm shift in physics like what happened 100 years ago with the theory of relativity and quantum theory, it is very hard to know what sort of reasoning to bring to bear."

It could be that the possible change in light speed will only matter in the study of the large scale structure of the universe, its origins and evolution.

For example, varying light speed could explain why two distant and causally unconnected parts of the universe can be so similar even if, according to conventional thought, there has not been enough time for light or other forces to pass between them.

It may only matter when scientists are studying effects over billions of years or billions of light years.

Or there may be startling implications that could change not only the way cosmologists view the universe but also its potential for human exploitation.

"For example there's a cherished law that says nothing can go faster than light and that follows from the theory of relativity," Davies said. The accepted speed of light is 300,000 km (186,300 miles) per second.

"Maybe it's possible to get around that restriction, in which case it would enthrall Star Trek fans because at the moment even at the speed of light it would take 100,000 years to cross the galaxy. It's a bit of a bore really and if the speed of light limit could go, then who knows? All bets are off," Davies said.

I think it is interesting. Sometimes we hold on tight too something we think we know that there isn't very much room for something else.



pauluzzz1981 said:
...

I think it is interesting. Sometimes we hold on tight too something we think we know that there isn't very much room for something else.

It's currently baseless speculation.

They don't even have a mathematical basis. It's more likely the data is wrong or another explanation. The speed of light being constant has so much evidence it would take equally overwhelming evidence to overturn, not just "wouldn't it be nice if it explained this one thing".



Soleron said:
pauluzzz1981 said:
DarkWraith said:
...

Nice fact. But you know well as i do that science is making assumptions and state them as near truths. Like the big bang theory. 

The big bang theory has plenty of evidence, and none of the alternatives do. Scientists are open to better theories existing. Feel free to disprove the big bang by showing it's impossible physically or mathematically.

It seems to me like you just don't trust it or carbon dating because it contradicts your religion.

That isn't true. I like the truth. So if i follow something or assume it's right i like too know that it's true. 



Soleron said:
pauluzzz1981 said:
...

I think it is interesting. Sometimes we hold on tight too something we think we know that there isn't very much room for something else.

It's currently baseless speculation.

They don't even have a mathematical basis. It's more likely the data is wrong or another explanation. The speed of light being constant has so much evidence it would take equally overwhelming evidence to overturn, not just "wouldn't it be nice if it explained this one thing".

maybe, but einstein had some crazy ideas for his time. We will see. What is in your opinion the biggest assumption in science that is sometimes stated as a fact?