Borkachev said:
As you said, blame the PS1. I'd always assumed he was stabbed through the shoulder, now I'm not completely sure. This is the one thing you've made me wonder at in this thread. But like I said, it's an awfully minor issue. It's a question of where precisely, in a measure of inches, a stab wound happened. Does the story hold together or fall apart based on that location? Would it even matter if there had been no sword at all, and Sephiroth had just lifted him up by the scruff of his shirt? No. So who gives a shit? (1)
Maybe I didn't make this clear enough. Cloud was never physically weak. He was a tough kid with low self-esteem and a poor sense of self. It was in this sense that he was "weak," and it was this that kept him out of SOLDIER -- only the mentally strong could withstand the Mako treatments. (2) Mako poisoning isn't a physical poison like arsenic. It's concentrated knowledge and "spirit energy," and the "poisoning" effect is the mind's reaction to overexposure to these things. There's no indication that it's harmful to the body; it just drives you insane.(3)
In any case, I was just throwing that out as a possibility. The point is that you can't make wild assumptions about the state of medicine in a world full of magic and bizarre technology. The life-saving properties of Jenova cells, at least, are hinted at in the story through Vincent and Lucretia. (3)
And could you please try to be a little less obnoxious with your replies? (4)
And it's not just what I "think." When I venture to make a guess like that, it's because it's got compelling evidence behind it. In this case, we're prepared for the possibility of Cloud being stronger than Sephiroth throughout the game as a buildup to the final battle, where Cloud expels the last of him from his mind.(5)
So you can accept that they escape, but you refuse to believe they were captured in the first place? What exactly were they escaping from? Come on. You're not this dense. (6)
I told you that this stuff is explained elsewhere in the game. I don't particularly want to go digging through the game script to find it. Even without the direct quotes, even a retarded chimp could piece this together. Hojo tells Cloud he was part of the Jenova project. Sephiroth explains what Hojo did to him. We see the place where the experiments took place. Everyone in Nibelheim at the time of the Sephiroth incident was also part of the project, except Tifa, who was rescued immediately after. In the note he leaves, Zangan explains that he got her away just as Hojo and the Shinra soldiers were arriving. This quotation I actually did dig up for you: "As I was coming out of the reactor, Shinra troops were just arriving. I recall a scientist named Hojo was in charge. He ordered the troops to gather up everyone still alive for the experiment. I didn't know what type of experiment he was talking about, but I wasn't about to let them have my
dearest student."
Hmmm, I wonder if these things might be connected somehow.
If you really need it spelled out for you, this scene is depicted in the Last Order anime. I didn't want to bring it up because it's not canonical, but I guess some people don't believe things until they see it performed in front of them with bright lights and colors. (6)
No, he wasn't a regular guy. He wasn't all-powerful, either. You're "just going by the story"? What part of the story, exactly?(7)
So is it just the word "clones" you hate? If I call them fig-blossoms, would that make it alright? There are no clones in FFVII. Yes, they have Jenova cells. If you get a blood transfusion, does that make you a clone? (8)
I explained this in a previous post. No clone broke into the Shinra building and took Jenova. Jenova itself came to life under the control of Sephiroth, broke out of its containment, and wiped out the building. (9)
Sephiroth never controlled the members of SOLDIER. Why that is is never explicitly said, but it's implied that it's either because they weren't subjected to the same level of Jenova experimentation as the others, or, much more likely, because they possessed the "strength of mind" we were just talking about which Cloud and the other subjects lacked. Sephiroth could only manipulate the weak.(10)
No, you were right on the Cloud clone part, you were just wrong about what a Sephiroth clone is. That's alright -- it was a long, long time before I figured it out. Cloud is just as much a Sephiroth clone as any of the numbered clones -- he just escaped before he got his tattoo.(11)
Because obtaining the black materia was more urgent to Sephiroth. The reunion didn't matter until he had that.(12)
I refuse to believe you don't understand this. No, you're being deliberately dense. (13)
You go into a burning building. There unconscious on the floor is your daughter and an anonymous fireman who tried to save her, and you can only carry one of them. Are you going to rescue the fireman? Fuck no.
What exactly is the problem here? Who else would be first on the scene if not the Shinra army?
Yes, you've got it. These are all powers of Jenova. If you have a problem with that, you must hate all this magic. "This is bullshit! Magic isn't real!"(14)
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Sorry I'm late ladies and gentlemen! Well, not really, I just didn't feel like being a random jerk on the internet. Also, of the 2 people mildly interested in this response, after nearly a week, that interest is probably gone, but I am a man of my word.
(1) Recall the stabbing itself in the foot comment? Maybe it was shooting. Sorry, but one quick stab wound is fatal, one long prolonged stab wound isn't, absolutely destroys the value. Not to mention the randomness of it. Rendering the most emotional impactful part of the story retarded is great storytelling. You're ignoring this fault intentionally. Oddly, I can and have admitted I was wrong on the internet. I wonder why no one else can. Rather than saying "Well, I guess I was wrong on this fact" you turn into Mr. I can't be wrong then say "Oh, It's not important". Gee. Quality.
(2) So, yeah, he's mentally weaker (mentally) than average, yet breaks control and isn't a vegetable. Huh. Gotcha. Still going with the story that he was only an average grunt, which probably wouldn't be a really tough kid too. Sorry, going with them, not with your apologies.
(3) Filling in the holes with your fanfiction ideas. Got it. "It's poison, stay away! It'll heal you!". You writing stuff up does not mean a big problem exists otherwise.
(4) "Now this is interesting. Your entire loathing of the story was based on your hatred of clones, and I've just explained that the story actually has nothing to do with clones and never did. How are you going to deal with the cognitive dissonance there? Are you going to reexamine your whole belief from its foundation and change your perspective? Or are you going to invent an entirely new reason to hate it and pretend that was the reason you hated it all along?" - Your first reply to me
And you asked me to be less obnoxious? Fuck you, you ignorant asshole. It's clear I'm dealing with a self righteous fucker here, and the worst part is, it's on a topic that's entirely irrelevant! You deserved that Fuck you, you earned it. I don't pretend I'm not a sarcastic bitter asshole, and I don't say it's a bad thing if you have your reasons for it. Moving on.
(5) Captain opinion going against everything the game says again. Hey, it's true, the game may be saying it to fuck with Cloud, but seeing as everyone else pretty much agrees with them, we'll go on it as truth. He may get stronger, but he was a Nobody.
(6) That Dense, No, I can accept it happens, but when it's a plot hole filled by an anime episode (Not to say its not a difficult plot hole) I just completely disagree to your claim it's an amazingly well written story, and using anime written later to present a theory with a plot hole seems to back up my side more.
(7) Every single bit of story I read on Sephiroth called him amazing... even before the Jenova insanity. Every single thing. I don't read much story, but I would LOVE to read some in game examples saying "Sephiroth was nothing, just the child of a scientist and random woman". Also reading up, apparently that random woman was a random scientist. Fair enough, I'm not interested in hearing what Hojo says when you fight him the last time again right now.
(8) A shitty storyline by any other name is what?
(9) I don't recall you saying that, but at least that's a fair explanation. So I'll give you the nod. "Shit, my head is now frozen in lifestream with the physical representative of my cells. Guess I'll break out now" Random? Yes, since the cells have been active 20 odd years. Reasonable? Also yes.
(10) Actually, the game just leaves this a blank slate(so far as I know), letting you fan fic an answer that is niether true nor false, just a huge hole. Well written indeed. My fan fic answer was even more Fig-Blossoms. Yours is they just deny Jenova the Re-union. I think I still go with my side again.
(11) Hojo always tattoos those he gets first last? The nameless one, the one he didn't cast aside, he doesn't tattoo. Just when he discards them, not at any other time. Well, let's just go with the "Not awful, but just randomly illogical" on this one. He can't identify them till they are garbage and he doesn't care? Cept...Cloud was garbage... meh.
(12) This all really depends on whether Jenova wants to gain the knowledge of the ancients that it came to destroy. Seems like an odd order to me. (List of things to do: Re-unite and gain all my power, or slowly gain all my power back and get black sphere I can't use till all of me is together). Admittidly, nitpicking and not as solid as anything else, but worthy of a comment.
(13) It's dense to suggest he might consider getting some help on his way out? Shrug, if the anime Shinra army was there, this is fair. If it was in an in game quote, even more fair. Im shocked that you misunderstood my suggestion enough to call me dense, but then again, I did write point 4.
(14) Just responding to your "illusion and sound" comment, but the next question, of course, is not how he read her mind, but got ZACH's Memories which Tifa didn't have from reading HER mind? I'd actually say that the Jenova cells just random gave him Zach's Memories up until he died if I had to, but this is merely what you said, so it deserves mockery of course. Also, re read point 4.
Sorry it took so long to reply, I just had a fun weekend and day off Monday, and a good day at work on Tuesday. Today was annoying enough to require my cheering, and nothing makes me happier than pointless bickering online!
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