Edouble24 said: I really can't agree that the controls work exactly as they should all the time. You've never had your Mii swing the tennis racket the wrong way? The Wii just picked up me swinging the controller but didn't register the direction properly, that has happened quite often. I just turned on Wii bowling right now, I swung my arm to the right, to the left, under my leg, 20 feet away from the TV and even backwards (with my back facing the TV) and it went right down the middle each time. Seriously go try it, have your back facing the sensor bar and swing, move and arm in any direction while swinging and the ball most likely will hit some pins. Now this isn't how people should play the game but it proves that it's got quite a ways to go before it can be called accurate. Wii Sports succeeds in giving us a preview of what is to come on the Wii, we'll get upgraded versions with 1:1 controls that are much more precise in the future. I think when that time comes then Wii Sports 2(or whatever the game will be called) will be scoring 8+ all over. I honestly see a lot of room for improvement which is why I just can't agree that Wii Sports deserves a really high score.

 I honestly have not had any issues with the Miis not registering the forswing/backswing incorrectly. Occasionally I will swing the wrong way and mess up, but never ever have I had an issue with it not registering right. I certainly have not seen anything like what you describe in Wii Bowling. I simply can't throw the thing straight down the lane because of how my hand cocks to the side when going through the motion. The same problem has always plagued me in real bowling as well which is how I figured out how to adapt in wii bowling. Roll the bawl straight and then when you release cock your wrist to the left or right. It will spin and curve down the lane the way it is supposed to. If what you described is right I can only assume you always score a perfect 300 every game.

Edouble24 said: This is why I made the movie comparison, just because a lot of people like something doesn't mean it should score well. Lots of games sell well that are heavily flawed. Why is Mario and Sonic selling? Maybe because Mario and Sonic are on the cover. If someone is writing an opinionated review and gives Mario and Sonic a 10, fine, but the game has some bluntly obvious flaws that most reviewers simply can't ignore. You can get good sales from advertising a poor product, just because people bought into the hype doesn't make it good. And Smash Brothers was always intended to be a party game, why wouldn't it be?

I've never considered SSB:M a party game... but I don't know. I guess my definition of a party game is slightly different than yours.

And I think what Bod was trying to point out is that every movie reviewer, will normally review movies similarly. Good movies get good reviews. Bad movies will get bad reviews. If two average reviews review a movie, they will respond with similar reviews. So even movies that lack a real story, such as Date Movie or Scary Movie, will get reviews based on what the movie is suppose to do, and not what they (the reviewer) wants it to do. Not saying that bad movies will do bad, though that is usually the case. I can't think of one "ok" movie that did "really great." If you know of a movie that has a really bad average (or even just a bad average), yet did really well in the boxoffice and in DVD sales, let me know. Critics who like action movies will fairly rate a comedy movie.

Game critics on the other hand mostly review based on their likes and dislikes. And there are a large number of games that sell a lot better than their averages would indicate, and I don't even think that applies to party games. MySims (which I wouldn't consider a party game, since it lacks multiplayer as far as I know, and has a story line and unlockables, which by your definition would give it depth) got a 7 on IGN, a 6.4 average press score according to IGN, yet the readers gave it a 7.9. Now why is that? Is it because the game wasn't suited to the reviewers, and thus they did not give it a fair chance?

How about Endless Ocean, which was given a fake review by that mag (can't remember which one), that basically made fun of the game? Was that game given a fair review? IGN did give Endless Ocean an 8, but the average press score was 7.1, and the average reader score was 8.6. Why is it that the review scores always seem lower than what the game is given by critics?

I feel that they just don't know how to review these games fairly. And like I said, I never said these games should get 10s, or even 9s. It's just that a lot of these games get really bad scores because they don't fit into the "mold" of a what a game should be. 

 

Gnizmo said: Edouble24 said: I really can't agree that the controls work exactly as they should all the time. You've never had your Mii swing the tennis racket the wrong way? The Wii just picked up me swinging the controller but didn't register the direction properly, that has happened quite often. I just turned on Wii bowling right now, I swung my arm to the right, to the left, under my leg, 20 feet away from the TV and even backwards (with my back facing the TV) and it went right down the middle each time. Seriously go try it, have your back facing the sensor bar and swing, move and arm in any direction while swinging and the ball most likely will hit some pins. Now this isn't how people should play the game but it proves that it's got quite a ways to go before it can be called accurate. Wii Sports succeeds in giving us a preview of what is to come on the Wii, we'll get upgraded versions with 1:1 controls that are much more precise in the future. I think when that time comes then Wii Sports 2(or whatever the game will be called) will be scoring 8+ all over. I honestly see a lot of room for improvement which is why I just can't agree that Wii Sports deserves a really high score. I honestly have not had any issues with the Miis not registering the forswing/backswing incorrectly. Occasionally I will swing the wrong way and mess up, but never ever have I had an issue with it not registering right. I certainly have not seen anything like what you describe in Wii Bowling. I simply can't throw the thing straight down the lane because of how my hand cocks to the side when going through the motion. The same problem has always plagued me in real bowling as well which is how I figured out how to adapt in wii bowling. Roll the bawl straight and then when you release cock your wrist to the left or right. It will spin and curve down the lane the way it is supposed to. If what you described is right I can only assume you always score a perfect 300 every game.

Nope, certainly don't score 300s every game, I've actually never gotten a 300. Straight down the middle doesn't mean it hits every pin. But seriously, go try it now if you're close to your Wii. Have your back to the TV or be facing any direction and swing your arm and there is a very good chance that it will go right down the middle, maybe curve a bit. I honestly think people are tricked into thinking Wii Sports is more accurate than it really is, I can tell when my family is playing, they make all these odd bowling stances and such, and they work, but I doubt any of that is making a difference as long as you swing your arm, which I consider a flaw in something that's supposed to simulate real life movements.

Really I do want you to try out what I said and come back here and honestly post what happens. Doesn't position your Mii at all before swinging and tell me if you ever get a gutter ball. 

 

Edouble24 said: Gnizmo said: Nope, certainly don't score 300s every game, I've actually never gotten a 300. Straight down the middle doesn't mean it hits every pin. But seriously, go try it now if you're close to your Wii. Have your back to the TV or be facing any direction and swing your arm and there is a very good chance that it will go right down the middle, maybe curve a bit. I honestly think people are tricked into thinking Wii Sports is more accurate than it really is, I can tell when my family is playing, they make all these odd bowling stances and such, and they work, but I doubt any of that is making a difference as long as you swing your arm, which I consider a flaw in something that's supposed to simulate real life movements. Really I do want you to try out what I said and come back here and honestly post what happens. Doesn't position your Mii at all before swinging and tell me if you ever get a gutter ball.

 If you don't score 300s then why not? Every throw is the same right? That right there is proof that there is something you are missing in the game. I know people who can bowl a perfect game everytime without fail if they try. I can come close, but I haven't perfected my technique yet. Go try what I said and you will see what I mean. Twist your wrist while throwing the ball and it will add spin to it. I have never been able to get it to go straight down because my wrist alays goes wonky at the end and it gets some spin on it.

Edouble24 said: Nope, certainly don't score 300s every game, I've actually never gotten a 300. Straight down the middle doesn't mean it hits every pin. But seriously, go try it now if you're close to your Wii. Have your back to the TV or be facing any direction and swing your arm and there is a very good chance that it will go right down the middle, maybe curve a bit. I honestly think people are tricked into thinking Wii Sports is more accurate than it really is, I can tell when my family is playing, they make all these odd bowling stances and such, and they work, but I doubt any of that is making a difference as long as you swing your arm, which I consider a flaw in something that's supposed to simulate real life movements. Really I do want you to try out what I said and come back here and honestly post what happens. Doesn't position your Mii at all before swinging and tell me if you ever get a gutter ball.

It doesn't matter which way you face... it doesn't use the sensor bar or anything to determine where you are throwing the ball. It uses the tilt of the controller to determine spin and/or curves and such, and the force behind your throw to determine speed. Also, if you don't think the bowling game is pretty realistic, you should probably talk to some actual bowlers. I know two bowlers (my dad and my friend, both were in leagues), and both of them kick ass at bowling because they know how to bowl well, and can do what they do in real life. I won't say every bowler would say it's realistic (at least not 100%) but it does, at least as close as possible, recreate what you would do in real life. And that's a lot more realistic than any other console can do.

Stever89 said: Edouble24 said: This is why I made the movie comparison, just because a lot of people like something doesn't mean it should score well. Lots of games sell well that are heavily flawed. Why is Mario and Sonic selling? Maybe because Mario and Sonic are on the cover. If someone is writing an opinionated review and gives Mario and Sonic a 10, fine, but the game has some bluntly obvious flaws that most reviewers simply can't ignore. You can get good sales from advertising a poor product, just because people bought into the hype doesn't make it good. And Smash Brothers was always intended to be a party game, why wouldn't it be? I've never considered SSB:M a party game... but I don't know. I guess my definition of a party game is slightly different than yours. And I think what Bod was trying to point out is that every movie reviewer, will normally review movies similarly. Good movies get good reviews. Bad movies will get bad reviews. If two average reviews review a movie, they will respond with similar reviews. So even movies that lack a real story, such as Date Movie or Scary Movie, will get reviews based on what the movie is suppose to do, and not what they (the reviewer) wants it to do. Not saying that bad movies will do bad, though that is usually the case. I can't think of one "ok" movie that did "really great." If you know of a movie that has a really bad average (or even just a bad average), yet did really well in the boxoffice and in DVD sales, let me know. Critics who like action movies will fairly rate a comedy movie. Game critics on the other hand mostly review based on their likes and dislikes. And there are a large number of games that sell a lot better than their averages would indicate, and I don't even think that applies to party games. MySims (which I wouldn't consider a party game, since it lacks multiplayer as far as I know, and has a story line and unlockables, which by your definition would give it depth) got a 7 on IGN, a 6.4 average press score according to IGN, yet the readers gave it a 7.9. Now why is that? Is it because the game wasn't suited to the reviewers, and thus they did not give it a fair chance? How about Endless Ocean, which was given a fake review by that mag (can't remember which one), that basically made fun of the game? Was that game given a fair review? IGN did give Endless Ocean an 8, but the average press score was 7.1, and the average reader score was 8.6. Why is it that the review scores always seem lower than what the game is given by critics? I feel that they just don't know how to review these games fairly. And like I said, I never said these games should get 10s, or even 9s. It's just that a lot of these games get really bad scores because they don't fit into the "mold" of a what a game should be.

Well said, but I still have to disagree as I think you give user reviews too much credit. Just use this site as an example, somehow 106 people have reviewed Final Fantasy XIII already, many giving it the lowest score, others giving it the highest. Video game fans that submit fan reviews aren't the same people casually picking up the Wii controller and playing fun game of Wii tennis or Wii bowling. And Final Fantasy XIII was a lone example, I could have named one of the any hundreds of popular unreleased games. This is also not limited to VGchartz, it's just how video game fans are. 90 percent of them have something against a series/game and wrongfully bash it any chance they get. I'd never take the average of user reviews seriously.

 

Stever89 said: Edouble24 said: Nope, certainly don't score 300s every game, I've actually never gotten a 300. Straight down the middle doesn't mean it hits every pin. But seriously, go try it now if you're close to your Wii. Have your back to the TV or be facing any direction and swing your arm and there is a very good chance that it will go right down the middle, maybe curve a bit. I honestly think people are tricked into thinking Wii Sports is more accurate than it really is, I can tell when my family is playing, they make all these odd bowling stances and such, and they work, but I doubt any of that is making a difference as long as you swing your arm, which I consider a flaw in something that's supposed to simulate real life movements. Really I do want you to try out what I said and come back here and honestly post what happens. Doesn't position your Mii at all before swinging and tell me if you ever get a gutter ball.   It doesn't matter which way you face... it doesn't use the sensor bar or anything to determine where you are throwing the ball. It uses the tilt of the controller to determine spin and/or curves and such, and the force behind your throw to determine speed. Also, if you don't think the bowling game is pretty realistic, you should probably talk to some actual bowlers. I know two bowlers (my dad and my friend, both were in leagues), and both of them kick ass at bowling because they know how to bowl well, and can do what they do in real life. I won't say every bowler would say it's realistic (at least not 100%) but it does, at least as close as possible, recreate what you would do in real life. And that's a lot more realistic than any other console can do.

Well my highest score in Wii Bowling is 280 and in normal bowling it's not even 200 so I dunno about that. Everyone is good in Wii bowling.

Also Gnizmo I never said every throw was the same, I said the game was inaccurate and misrepresents the movements I'm making off screen, which the game is supposed to be dublicating.

I actually like Wii bowling, and there is some depth to it, I don't always bowl crazily like that because it's stupid and not fun, but it does show that the game has a lot of room for improvement in the accuracy area.

Edit-And Steve you are right, it's closer to real bowling that any other titles, but since it's one of the only ones that really tries to recreate real life bowling based on motion controls it doesn't have much competition in this area. I guess a few bowling games came out on Wii after Wii Sports, but at the time of review it was one of a kind and I think while the idea was really great the execution wasn't as good as many would have liked...in any of the games, not just Wii bowling. Wii Sports has a 76 average, if you're not arguing that this game isn't an 8+ game then there is no point for us to debate really. I think the score reflects the game well and I think once you all see a much improved version of the game you'll agree. 

 

Wii bowling isn't supposed to completely accuratly represent everything you are doing off-screen. Irection and position in the lane are both determined by using the d-pad on the controller itself. The depth of the game comes from the fact that there are a series of motions that can lead to a perfect score that are relatively dificult to master to the point of instant replication. Depth is an analog measure, not a digital one. Just because it is not as deep as game xxxx does not mean the game has no depth. There is plenty there, and more than most games I will say. Thats mostly cause most games are stupid movie cash-ins or horribly low budget crap. but still.

In reply to your edit, well you are wrong. You are also not being fair to the game. Does R:FoM deserve to have low review scores because Resistance 2 will have so much more? Absolutely not. You have to judge it based on the time it was released and what was known to be capable at that time. You can't retroactively dock the original Final Fantasy points because the game had no plot and a terrible battle system since we have found a better way since then. Just because it can be done better doesn't mean it wasn't done very well.

Edouble24 said: Well said, but I still have to disagree as I think you give user reviews too much credit. Just use this site as an example, somehow 106 people have reviewed Final Fantasy XIII already, many giving it the lowest score, others giving it the highest. Video game fans that submit fan reviews aren't the same people casually picking up the Wii controller and playing fun game of Wii tennis or Wii bowling. And Final Fantasy XIII was a lone example, I could have named one of the any hundreds of popular unreleased games. This is also not limited to VGchartz, it's just how video game fans are. 90 percent of them have something against a series/game and wrongfully bash it any chance they get. I'd never take the average of user reviews seriously.

And I think you give the critic too much credit. Middle ground reached!

I don't really know why I'm arguing over this. Critics in general should always been taken with a grain of salt, and since any human critic (read: ALL) will have some personal bias, and review can't always be taken as the 'be all end all' way as rating a game. There's games that obviously some people like more than other people. Can we agree on that?

Also, for depth, try out some of those "training" things they do in WiiSports. You have to unlock some of them too. The second level in bowling gives you 10 throws, and each throw adds a row of pins to the end. Your scored on how many pins you knock down, and strikes double that score. By the 10th throw, you have to knock down close to 90 pins. It's pretty popular with some of my friends (and including the bowling one). I think a lot of people miss those "training" games, that can be a lot of fun.

@Bod
"Okay, I'll try to explain this one more time, because it's apparent that you still don't understand. "
I hate when people repeatedly make the same argument with the assumption that the other is wrong and accept that they just don't 'get it'. I agree with Edouble. Not because I haven't read Aristotle or Bloom, because I have (necessary for a teaching philosophy course), but because I fundamentally believe that many respected gaming journalists (obviously not all - and, although I like him, I think Travers may have been a bad example) do not base their reviews on personal preference of genre. Nintendogs, especially, was a good example. As is the warioware. But, of course, it would only take one example to debunk your theory. no?