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Forums - Politics Discussion - If medical coverage is not a necessity, what is it?

richardhutnik said:
Marks said:
richardhutnik said:
Marks said:
A luxury. Free medical care takes away personal responsibility for your own health. I'm sick of my tax dollars going to lung cancer treatment for smokers, and people who got in accidents that were their own fault for doing stupid stuff. Also private care increases efficiency which leads to faster wait times and lower costs due to less bureaucratic non-sense.

That said, I'm still willing to compromise on a two-tiered system. Guaranteed emergency care for everyone, but privatized care for less urgent matters.

What you describe is actually what is here now.  The emergency room is guaranteed, while the rest is private, outside of Medicare.  So, what I am seeing is you are arguing for is an abolition of Medicare and Medicaid, and use of emergency rooms more.  This is the most expensive otpion.  You will get people with heart attacks showing up, that could of been prevented.  And, if I am reading correctly, you will have an emergency room where you have a legal judge that would hear evidence for whether or not the person did it by stupidity or not, and then they are admitted.  In short, if you don't have necessary resources, you need to have legal help to be able to get yourself life saving help.  So, you added to the costs of the emergency room, the costs of the legal system, unless you have money.

Now, if you want to start addressing these issues, you are getting into Obamacare where people are required to have coverage, or pay taxes to pay for emergency rooms.  There is also subsidies to have people buy in a market.  Each of these is set up in 50 different states.  The Republican alternative is to nationalize these markets and use vouchers, where people are given tax dollars to buy into it.

So, I am not sure what you want is actually the most effective way of doing it, or would keep costs down.


Yeah I guess you're right, my idea needs a little fine tuning. 

The one thing I know I want gone is medicare/medicaid. I don't want any of that government crap. Seniors have the greatest wealth of any age category so I don't get why senior health care is such a concern...honestly young adults/middle aged people need the help more than seniors if anything. 

I can live with healthcare though, there are other things like social security, foreign aid, and welfare that I'd want gone first. 

Due to Social Security, millions of elderly are avoiding poverty.  They also aren't really employable in ways they could survive either.  And the family has broken down to an extent where they don't get much help.  Medicaid is for non-elderly, pretty much those who are not poor.

I do think you need to seriously look at your idea, and you need to consider possibly major refining, and get some solid numbers.  Also, come up with an acceptable number of added deaths in society by your removing things.  And then, if you want to persuade people on your views, you are going to have to show how it is superior.


Ohhh I could never possibly disagree more with somebody about anything than your view on social security. 

Problems I have with it:

1) It's the sign of a nanny state, the government telling you that you can't look after your own money, so we'll do it for you.

2) It's taking money from each paycheque during a person's entire working career. What if I need that money when I'm 30...but you tell me I can't have it until I retire at 60+...wtf? 

3) It's a ponzi scheme. Take money from new investors to pay off the older investors. But since it's thru Uncle Sam it's legal.

4) It's unsustainable. It's going broke. It can't last. There aren't enough new investors to keep this ponzi scheme going since the American population is aging.

5) The same money stolen from each paycheque could be invested privately at your own discretion. Yes, it's riskier, but it has potential for better payoffs.

6) It's not guaranteed. If you make a lot of money during your working career, the government can just decide to keep it and not give back a dime. This happened with both sets of my grandparents (one started a small business from the ground, the other was an accountant). So if you do well during your career it magically turns from an investment into a tax. 

7) You have no choice. You can't opt out, you can't say fuck off keep your greedy warmongering hands off my hard earned money you fucking government pricks. You're stuck in this failing, shithole of a ponzi scheme. Because if you could opt out, they'd be even more screwed than they are now, and they know it. They can't end it without suffering through billions more in debt.

 

I guess that pretty much covers it. Social security is a joke, and needs to end...but of course it won't end anytime soon. 

But I guess this is from a capitalist perspective, hating SS that is. Of course policemen and teachers (and other government workers) love it...put in your 30 years, retire at 50, start collecting SS, and get a part time job as a Wal-mart greeter, and you're earning 2 nice paycheques each month for very little work. 



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you can either have liberty or death aka socialistic medicine



I don't know from where people get free medical care is free. Otherwise insurance indemnity is free money too. Just a side note on those political euphemisms...

Either way, it's useless to debate a health care reform in the US when the ammount of money diverted to it would be simply too insane to even think about. Even subsiding half of the medical expenses overall would consume 50% of the federal budget.

It would be better to find beforehand the reasons behind the insanity below. Yeah, someone once even tried to argue they are the best physicians on the world and shit, but still a blatant rip-off:

Perhaps if the american health system wasn't twice as expensive as other developed countries, including an almost 65% increase during the last thirteen years (when average incomes actually fell), people wouldn't make such a fuss over it.



 

 

 

 

 

haxxiy said:

I don't know from where people get free medical care is free. Otherwise insurance indemnity is free money too. Just a side note on those political euphemisms...

Either way, it's useless to debate a health care reform in the US when the ammount of money diverted to it would be simply too insane to even think about. Even subsiding half of the medical expenses overall would consume 50% of the federal budget.

It would be better to find beforehand the reasons behind the insanity below. Yeah, someone once even tried to argue they are the best physicians on the world and shit, but still a blatant rip-off:

Perhaps if the american health system wasn't twice as expensive as other developed countries, including an almost 65% increase during the last thirteen years (when average incomes actually fell), people wouldn't make such a fuss over it.


Eh, i'm generally not a big fan of charts like this because it tends to ignore numerous confounding variables.

US life expectancy is lower then most other countries, but generally this isn't related to healthcare reasons.

The US for example leads other countries in such things as homicides, car accidents, drug addictions and preamture births due to child pregnancy.

Just about the only nonheatlhcare life expectancy measure the US isn't all the way in the back on is Suicide. 

 

In  short, the best ways to increase US life expectancy aren't actually related to healthcare.  It's getting rid of the majorheadwinds our healthcare system is facing.

 

Second best is actually healthcare related but only tangentally.  It's basially "find ways to get people to act healthier". 



sales2099 said:
This is why I like living in Canada. Taxed up the ass, but hey, free medical care.


I would much rather have the taxes back than the "free" heathcare. BTW if you are paying taxes for it isn't "free."



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I'm very glad I live in a country with medical coverage, it's the only way I've been able to afford treatment for my debilitating OCD.