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Forums - Politics - Poverty makes people dumber...

SvennoJ said:
I thought that was common sense, work harder to make rent and get food, less time to study / look for better jobs, and no safety net to re-orientate.

And stress affecting mental abilities, umm yeah, my IQ probably dropped more then 13 points dealing with difficult births and a 2 year long sick infant.

Anyway proves that the lazy stress free poor people are the smart ones!


and maybe it's my perspective, but i totally don't consider stress free people poor.

 

For example, I don't got shit for money right now, as I had to move in the middle of the financial crisis and my girlfriend is finishing up her docotorate.  Together we'd qualify for all kinds of government benefits if we applied.

 

are we poor?  No, because I know if i'm coming up short on a light bill or grocery bill or something I know i've always got an extended family to bail me out.



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Kasz216 said:


I'm just talking about the science... the science in that article was... honestly pretty crappy after reading the whole thing.

In general i'm in favor of "permanent" welfare, with minor strings, that aren't adminstrative.  For example, you have to work somewhere 20 hours a week or something.   That should be plenty of motivation.

As for it being time to stop funding extended unemployment...  that's actually true.   The way unemployment works actually should totally piss you off right now... it essentially is welfare that priortizes the middle class and rich over the poor.

Unemployment is essnetially an insurance that you pay for that covers you for around 1 and a half, to two years.  The extensions have allowed people to get unemployment benefits for years past that.

After 2 years, you should be kicked off unemployment, and be slowley adjusted downwards towards "regular" welfare. 

I mean think about it this way.   7-8 years ago I worked in a factory where I made ~20 an hour as ppart of the UAW.  Today I make 8.50.

After my 2 years of unemployment i've paid for would be up in both situations... in one situation i'm getting $20 an "hour" worth. (well 80% I want to say),  In the other i'm getting 80% of 8.50.

Same person, only difference is, I used to have more money, therefore i deserve more money?

Currently, unemployment i get now is less than half what I used to get, because the job I had is far lower than what I had.  The issue with the article I posted, is the person writing it, just wants it to stop, under the belief that people on unemployment just don't have enough gumption to get a job out there, so not having any will light a fire under them.  It is not what you had suggested.  The presumption out there is that the jobs are there.  

Personally, I am going through hoops, and having to seriously find stuff to do, and press on.  I am networking pretty heavy and even trying hard to even get unpaid work, and those aren't that numerous, particularly among stuff that is viable for a resume.  

A problem here is that it isn't even the true belief that people need freedom and having the negative income tax you spoke about.  People genuinely believe the poor have issues and are subhuman and need increased babysitting to get their shiftless butts in motion.  So, you don't get a baseline of support with minimal administration.  You see cases where there is increased calls for drug testing of those on unemployment and other welfare, because of the belief it MUST be drugs that is the reason, eventhough there is little shown in the way of people on welfare are more on drugs than those who aren't.

I think what the study does show is that when you are without, your cognitive processes get taxed and your ability to plan long-term is shorted out, and the stress makes you more short-sighted.  I see I have to battle this myself, but I find I do try to press on by letting go of stuff.



people who can afford an education know more..... gee who would have thought



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Also consider food. Poor people eat cheap garbage, and what you eat affects your overall health. There are a lot of reasons being poor makes you stupid and unhealthy.

But keep in mind that a lot of people are poor because they never learned good habits and such. It's not all the fault of the economy or whatever. Sometimes it's your parents, or even just you. Give a poor person a ton of money and chances are they'll blow it all in no time.



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Kasz216 said:
SvennoJ said:
I thought that was common sense, work harder to make rent and get food, less time to study / look for better jobs, and no safety net to re-orientate.

And stress affecting mental abilities, umm yeah, my IQ probably dropped more then 13 points dealing with difficult births and a 2 year long sick infant.

Anyway proves that the lazy stress free poor people are the smart ones!


and maybe it's my perspective, but i totally don't consider stress free people poor.

 

For example, I don't got shit for money right now, as I had to move in the middle of the financial crisis and my girlfriend is finishing up her docotorate.  Together we'd qualify for all kinds of government benefits if we applied.

 

are we poor?  No, because I know if i'm coming up short on a light bill or grocery bill or something I know i've always got an extended family to bail me out.

True, you have a safety net. I've always had one too, so I could concentrate on my studies instead of worrying about money.

Money doesn't make you smart either, how many lottery winners manage to hold on to their fortunes...



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richardhutnik said:

So, apparently there can be a snowball effect here...

 

http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-poverty-iq-20130831,0,2261441.story

Whether you're a New Jersey mall rat or a farmer in India, being poor can sap your smarts. In fact, the mental energy required to make do with scarce resources taxes the brain so much that it can perpetuate the cycle of poverty, new research shows.

The findings, published in Friday's edition of the journal Science, indicate that an urgent need — making rent, getting money for food — tugs at the attention so much that it can reduce the brainpower of anyone who experiences it, regardless of innate intelligence or personality. As a result, many social welfare programs set up to help the poor could backfire by adding more complexity to their lives.

"I think it's a game changer," said Kathleen Vohs, a behavioral scientist at the University of Minnesota's Carlson School of Management, who wasn't involved with the study.

There's a widespread tendency to assume that poor people don't have money because they are lazy, unmotivated or just not that sharp, said study coauthor Sendhil Mullainathan, a behavioral economist at Harvard University.

"That's a broad narrative that's pretty common," Mullainathan said. "Our intuition was quite different: It's not that poor people are any different than rich people, but that being poor in itself has an effect."

This reminded me of a Times article about the "Me" generation and an important portion from it about how back in the 80's and 90's they linked self-esteem to higher grades and testing scores. Turns out the take away that boosting self-esteem by giving awards, trophies or ribbons for simply being one's self and stroking our kids' egos didn't create better grades or more achievement but has come about in the form of greater rates of narcissism and selfishness.  It was really ACTUAL achievement that boosted real self-esteem not the other way around.

I suspect that the same will be found here eventually after we have gone ahead and given away earned wealth and resources we will see a gradual decline in overall living standards and an even further decline in rates of intelligence.

We are already seeing it over the last several decades. We spend more on education, feeding the poor, giving away free health care etc. etc. than ever before and yet by nearly every metric we use to track the academic progress of our populace we are getting dumber and dumber.





SvennoJ said:
 

True, you have a safety net. I've always had one too, so I could concentrate on my studies instead of worrying about money.

Money doesn't make you smart either, how many lottery winners manage to hold on to their fortunes...

Yeah.  Actually thinking about it.  Oddly enough, I think this is the one result that DOESN'T show what they intend to show either.

 

Afterall, the expierments they did showed that by reminding poor people they were poor...  it caused poor people to perform worse.

 

So it isn't that poorness just inately makes you stupider by taxing your mental faculties.  If anything it just shows the stress of bills and such is a temporary factor that's a problem when evoked. 

 

If it were a permanent factor, the control group would of did the same... you would think.  The first group in the expierment should of shown zero change between the poor who were reminded of beign poor and those who weren't.    Basically based on the experiment there really shouldn't be any difference between someone who is poor and not given the huge bill, and someone who is poor and given a bunch of money.

 

Additionally it wouldn't be surprised if the rich did worse after being put in the mindset of "poor" which they didn't actually do.

 

This study if anything would go agaisnt the "will is a finite thing" suggestion.



-CraZed- said:
richardhutnik said:

So, apparently there can be a snowball effect here...

http://www.latimes.com/science/la-sci-poverty-iq-20130831,0,2261441.story

"That's a broad narrative that's pretty common," Mullainathan said. "Our intuition was quite different: It's not that poor people are any different than rich people, but that being poor in itself has an effect."

 

This reminded me of a Times article about the "Me" generation and an important portion from it about how back in the 80's and 90's they linked self-esteem to higher grades and testing scores. Turns out the take away that boosting self-esteem by giving awards, trophies or ribbons for simply being one's self and stroking our kids' egos didn't create better grades or more achievement but has come about in the form of greater rates of narcissism and selfishness.  It was really ACTUAL achievement that boosted real self-esteem not the other way around.

I suspect that the same will be found here eventually after we have gone ahead and given away earned wealth and resources we will see a gradual decline in overall living standards and an even further decline in rates of intelligence.

We are already seeing it over the last several decades. We spend more on education, feeding the poor, giving away free health care etc. etc. than ever before and yet by nearly every metric we use to track the academic progress of our populace we are getting dumber and dumber.

So, you are saying it helping people in need that makes them dumber, and if you just cause people to suffer more, they will snap out of it and get smarter?  The research doesn't show this.  And it has been show that stress and immediacy of problems cause creative thinking to get short-circuited.  That is the article, not that pampering spoils people and makes them dumber.  If what you are saying is true, show studies where malnutrition and homelessness make people function better.  If you can, kudos to you.  

Now, in regards to your other article, there was misreading and I can agree with you.  The whole self-esteem thing had it backwards.  And actually, real research shows that it isn't how much self-esteem you have, but possibly how little one thinks of oneself, and thinks of others.  Here is one article that goes into it:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=self-esteem-can-be-ego-trap

Adam Grant, in the book "Give and Take" introduces the concept of "Otherish" as opposed to "selfless" or "selfish" in as a trait that indicates chance of success.  A person who can think of how to serve others better, and solve the problems of others, does better.

http://www.giveandtake.com/Home/Index

http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=3224

 

When you deal with networks, the individual or node in it that provides the most resources will get the most traffic, so what Adam Grant writes is correct as I see it.



Proverty breeds street smart. Wealthy breeds bookworm smart.



PigPen said:
Proverty breeds street smart. Wealthy breeds bookworm smart.

As in coping mechanics, I could agree.  Suffering can make one a richer person.  However, I don't see poverty as something in and of itself as resulting in this.