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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - [UPDATE] Xbox One Could Possibly Feature a Powerful Discrete GPU + APU rumor - New Sources and Info!

drkohler on 07 September 2013
Pemalite said:
petalpusher said:

47 MB of eSRAM already accounts for more than 2 Billions of transistors, wich you can breakdown as this :

- vanilla 32 MB eSRAM
- GPU eSRAM 5MB (it does have its own like every gpu)             (! shocker PS4 have eSRAM too !)
- Jaguar CPU eSRAM about 5 MB (4MB cache + instructions)
- Redundancy at about 4 MB, to improve yields. It means that if some of the eSRAM cells are defective, the chip can still work

I think you're confusing eSRAM/eDRAM and what L1/L2/L3 and in some cases L4 cache is.

Pretty much, yes. However, rest assured that the 47MByte of ram is fully accounted for, there are no secret rambits. And no, redundancy of course does not count. However there is a ton a edram cache and register files in the various units that add up to the 47MByte.



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Metazoid on 07 September 2013

The amount of esRAM is pretty irrelevant isn't it?



Scoobes on 07 September 2013
Metazoid said:

The amount of esRAM is pretty irrelevant isn't it?

It's relevant because it's a significant part of the main chip. 32MB is around 1.6 billion transistors out of the 5 billion transistors in the X1 which is fairly significant for these wild claims about die size and transistor count... not that it helps the rumour any.




Get your Portable ID!

misterymedia on 07 September 2013

Quite a few misinformed people in this thread. There is a dGPU, I know that much. It's also clocked at 853mhz. You'll realize on the 29th that this isn't just a lie.



Colltrain on 08 September 2013

Call me whatever you want! I am hoping this is true, don't understand why they would leave it so long but I wouldn't care.



 

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petalpusher on 08 September 2013
Pemalite said:
petalpusher said:

47 MB of eSRAM already accounts for more than 2 Billions of transistors, wich you can breakdown as this :

- vanilla 32 MB eSRAM
- GPU eSRAM 5MB (it does have its own like every gpu)             (! shocker PS4 have eSRAM too !)
- Jaguar CPU eSRAM about 5 MB (4MB cache + instructions)
- Redundancy at about 4 MB, to improve yields. It means that if some of the eSRAM cells are defective, the chip can still work
- Dedicated unit also features tiny bit of eSRAM, like for the audio part, kinect, video encode/decode, etc..

then you add the cpu itself, the gpu itself, the dedicated hardware units and their transistors logic, bus,.. to link everything. You get about 5 Billions transistors on a 363 mm2 die.

Nothing is wrong, there s no empty space, everything matches  the known specs.

I think you're confusing eSRAM/eDRAM and what L1/L2/L3 and in some cases L4 cache is.


There s no eDRAM in xbox one. And that's a deliberate choice, compare to WiiU for example (or the x360 eDRAM daughter die). Having eSRAM means you can get the better process for the whole die (and let's keep in mind the goal is  to have only one die).

Every other memory cells in the CPU and GPU are  SRAM. eSRAM is just semantic to state it's an additional memory chunk (the embedded 32 MB), but it's exactly the same type of memory cell you ll find elsewhere on the die. That's why in fact, they add up all the SRAM chunks together to get 47 MB, that's because it's the same kind.

You should check white papers from AMD. For example an HD 7870 features about 7 MB of SRAM on its own, an HD 7970, 12 MB and so on..

http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/GCN_Architecture_whitepaper.pdf

"A high-end GPU like the AMD Radeon™ HD 7970 has over 12MB of SRAM and register files spread throughout the CUs and caches"


The die IS 363 mm2. Contrary to what one delusional person in the world is seeing, it's pretty simple to double check it with the pictures, using the right measurement. the micron DDR3 chips are 14x9mm (126mm2), you can almost exactly fit 3 on the apparent die (3x126=378), so it's a little bit smaller at 363 mm2. Nice ballpark figure.

 


Everyone used to evaluate die size with pictures and who knows how to do it right, can make the same measurement. There s no controversy here, unless you want to create one so bad, defying standard logic, there s no 510 mm2 die, not even close, neither some stacked up dGPU hidden underneath. 



Ashadian on 08 September 2013
fighter said:
that would explain why the launch games of x1 look better than ps4's...


Except which X180 games have you actually seen running??? I only seen the super powerful PC versions of Titanfall and BF4 claimed as X180



Ashadian on 08 September 2013
drkohler said:
Adinnieken said:

You assume the cost of a second GPU must be added into the existing costs.  You assume that the $600 retail cost of a GPU is the same as the component cost, it isn't.

If Microsoft were to add a second GPU the only thing it would be adding is the second GPU.  Not the memory.  There is 175mm of space for something in that 393mm SoC.  That's a lot of room for nothing.

When did the SoC increase to 393mm^2? Where did you get the 175mm^2 from? You are obviously still living in the land of delusion so here are a few minor points.  This mistertroll fabulates about a dgpu with around 2000-2300units (of whatever) made in 20nm with a w2w connection to the SoC.

a) The only company that gets anything out (as complex as a cpu) near 20nm is Intel with its new 22nm processor lines. Yields are not great so there are limited numbers of these things. Process technology wise, Intel is ahead of TSMC by about 1-1.5years and ahead by about 2-2.5 years of AMD. Tell us, who do you think makes these miracle dgpus (it certainly isn't intel)?

b) 20nm chips use a different technology than 28nm chips. Tell us which company is capable of makeing a chip that incorporates two different process technologies into one chip?

c) Tell us, where is the memory for this magical dgpu? You certainly need fast memory for this super dgpu.

d) Why would there be a primary gpu at all? This magical dgpu is faster than anything on the PC market, so why waste money on a "measly gpu" at all?

e) How would you feel as a developer if you were developing on developer units for years, only to be told 1 month before release "It was all a joke, we have a completely different gpu in our box"?

You write a lot of sense friend except you forgot about the secret cloud factory MS have. The one that is called Azure. It will produce the 22nm chips like it will produce the 3x the power of X180 from da CLOUDS



Ashadian on 08 September 2013
Adinnieken said:
drkohler said:
Adinnieken said

However, NAND can be used as RAM.  That's the beauty of NAND memory.  It can be used both as a storage format as a replacement for magnetic media, but it can also be used as a system memory replacement for DRAM.

Not in a million years. Do you know that the 8G NAND ram has a bandwidth of roughly 100MByte/s. Good luck with that as a replacement for 68GB/s main dram. (It will also degrade while being written to, so you would avoid anything that hs to to with frewuent reads/writes).

Wow, funny how time flies.  You're talking about the top performance of a card, not an embedded IC.  And DDR3 DRAM in the Xbox One is 68Gb/s not GB/s.  You're mixing up your bits and bytes.  100MB/s is pretty close to 1Gb/s.  That said, the performance available through NAND memory is capable of more than that.  NAND-based SSDs are capable of over 200MB/s, or roughly 2Gb/s.  Embeded NAND memory would be capable of potentially faster speeds.  Is it the same performance as DDR3 memory?  No.  It doesn't need to be.  It needs to be faster than the HDD, and it is.

With up to 100 million cycles on modern NAND memory, I doubt NAND degredation would be an issue considering NAND memory with 100K cycles was considered to have a 10 year lifespan.  If I'm not mistaken, 100M is 1000x greater than 100K, which would make that a 10,000 year lifespan.  I'm not worried.

Son, you really should know better than to bring a knife to a gun fight.  You're bound to get hurt.

Son your desperation knows no bounds? Have you read what you write? Your desperately clutching at straws? You know deep down the truth but your in denial. Even a village idiot would deduce the truth except fanboys

User was banned for this post - Kantor



petalpusher on 08 September 2013

the 8 GB flash memory is for firmware. It's not meant to replace  or help the 500 GB HDD for games, in anyway.

Every consoles have flash for that matter. The PS3 have flash for its firmware (256 MB), two chips, one for backup, one for the actual thing. Considering how much things MS wants to put as additionnal feature, 8 GB is the right amount.

It's cheap memory with ridiculously low bandwidth (compare to system badnwidth), but fine for the purpose.