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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - [UPDATE] Xbox One Could Possibly Feature a Powerful Discrete GPU + APU rumor - New Sources and Info!

Adinnieken said:
drkohler said:
Adinnieken said

However, NAND can be used as RAM.  That's the beauty of NAND memory.  It can be used both as a storage format as a replacement for magnetic media, but it can also be used as a system memory replacement for DRAM.

Not in a million years. Do you know that the 8G NAND ram has a bandwidth of roughly 100MByte/s. Good luck with that as a replacement for 68GB/s main dram. (It will also degrade while being written to, so you would avoid anything that hs to to with frewuent reads/writes).

Wow, funny how time flies.  You're talking about the top performance of a card, not an embedded IC.  And DDR3 DRAM in the Xbox One is 68Gb/s not GB/s.  You're mixing up your bits and bytes.  100MB/s is pretty close to 1Gb/s.  That said, the performance available through NAND memory is capable of more than that.  NAND-based SSDs are capable of over 200MB/s, or roughly 2Gb/s.  Embeded NAND memory would be capable of potentially faster speeds.  Is it the same performance as DDR3 memory?  No.  It doesn't need to be.  It needs to be faster than the HDD, and it is.

With up to 100 million cycles on modern NAND memory, I doubt NAND degredation would be an issue considering NAND memory with 100K cycles was considered to have a 10 year lifespan.  If I'm not mistaken, 100M is 1000x greater than 100K, which would make that a 10,000 year lifespan.  I'm not worried.

Son, you really should know better than to bring a knife to a gun fight.  You're bound to get hurt.




No, I'm pretty sure he means 68GB/s. RAM speed is measured in bytes/s, so 100-200MB/s is pretty slow by comparison.

As for the life cycle, if a developer uses NAND in the same way they use RAM then it'll speed through those cycles a lot faster than a normal NAND drive.



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CGI-Quality said:
Scoobes said:
I can't believe this thread is still going and some people actually believe this.

Numerous people have debunked the claims made in the OP with legitimate questions whose answers have no basis in reality.

There was a CPU boost, but it seems like this multi-GPU stuf has long been debunked. 

Not talking about the CPU upclock. That was fine, but expecting a console to suddenly have a second high spec GPU with no consideration for reality, not to menion the fact that the games they've shown on X1 are inferior on a technical level to modern PC games... it's just bizzare.



Scoobes said:
Adinnieken said:
drkohler said:
Adinnieken said

However, NAND can be used as RAM.  That's the beauty of NAND memory.  It can be used both as a storage format as a replacement for magnetic media, but it can also be used as a system memory replacement for DRAM.

Not in a million years. Do you know that the 8G NAND ram has a bandwidth of roughly 100MByte/s. Good luck with that as a replacement for 68GB/s main dram. (It will also degrade while being written to, so you would avoid anything that hs to to with frewuent reads/writes).

Wow, funny how time flies.  You're talking about the top performance of a card, not an embedded IC.  And DDR3 DRAM in the Xbox One is 68Gb/s not GB/s.  You're mixing up your bits and bytes.  100MB/s is pretty close to 1Gb/s.  That said, the performance available through NAND memory is capable of more than that.  NAND-based SSDs are capable of over 200MB/s, or roughly 2Gb/s.  Embeded NAND memory would be capable of potentially faster speeds.  Is it the same performance as DDR3 memory?  No.  It doesn't need to be.  It needs to be faster than the HDD, and it is.

With up to 100 million cycles on modern NAND memory, I doubt NAND degredation would be an issue considering NAND memory with 100K cycles was considered to have a 10 year lifespan.  If I'm not mistaken, 100M is 1000x greater than 100K, which would make that a 10,000 year lifespan.  I'm not worried.

Son, you really should know better than to bring a knife to a gun fight.  You're bound to get hurt.




No, I'm pretty sure he means 68GB/s. RAM speed is measured in bytes/s, so 100-200MB/s is pretty slow by comparison.

As for the life cycle, if a developer uses NAND in the same way they use RAM then it'll speed through those cycles a lot faster than a normal NAND drive.

Excuse me while I insert my foot into my mouth.

NVDIMM.  Windows also uses NAND memory in a product called Readyboost.  Essentially this caches reads from non-SSD system (OS) drives.

My comment still applies.  There are still faster implementations of NAND memory, other than in SD cards, and NAND memory doesn't need to be faster than the main DRAM memory, it needs to be faster than the HDD.   



Something is wrong with the xbox one from the moment I saw the cooler, could dissipate 200w, but the jaguar is low-power and with esram I do not think its generates 100W, I believed it was an overkill.
But according to the picture that give 200w to the soc, so much energy, maybe because it is a prototype or hiding something. Why need a big power brick/case/vent/cooler if the components are low-power, why have so strict nda with amd if they have nothing to show.
We must wait until the end of the month to see if they hiding something big or it was just smoke.



Damn, what is up with the xbox one? There seems to be new rumors on it's spec every couple of weeks.



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Kyuu said:
nightsurge said:


It's a great rumor, I'm not getting my hopes up, but it really seems like MS is not telling us something.

You be the judge, what do you think?


That's like saying.. "I'm not getting my hopes up but you know what? fuck it!! I am! D:"

 

Serouisly I don't buy any of this. We've heared rumors that PS4's CPU could run anywhere between 1.8 GHZ to 2.75 GHZ among many others. But I think its a waste of time to think about any of that until it's otherwise confirmed.

 

 

In fact both next gen cpus can't run at +2Ghz. The Jaguar CPU was designed to be running at a relative low frequency, because it does have short transistors pipleine  and there s a particular sweet spot in that kind of processor to  get the best efficiency (loading/unloading bits takes a certain length inside)

A Jaguar at 2.5 Ghz for example, would stall and not get any extra performance, it's just not designed for that kind of frequency. 2 Ghz is the max, but the PS4 will more likely run at 1.6 Ghz, and will be just fine with that. Theses consoles are really gpu centric machines. People don't realize how theses cpus are just strict general purpose units to control the gpu. It's very different from last gen in that regard. In some way we could maybe compare them to the PPE of last gen CPU (just that part)

About the whole dgpu with stack things... is there really some people seriously believing in this?!

They don't even realize, dGPU means discrete GPU wich is a plain simple graphic card, the exact contrary of gpu die. 22nm doesn't even exist for gpu process, so on and on, thats a load of nonsense every line.

It sounds like thoses blog talking about the end of the world, or the upcoming revelation to a new era. They usually die past the date. It's funny and the same time scary, how internet can spread ignorance so fast. 



Adinnieken said:

There is 175mm of space for something in that 363mm SoC.  That's a lot of room for nothing.

ok.. after some searching, I found where you pulled that number - by reading this misterx guy's blog (partially, the eye and brain strain gets too much after a while).

Firstly, I'd like to notice that this guy is in serious need of help, and I don't say that as a joke or derogatory comment - this guy needs psychological help. Then, reading through his various posts, this is what is in his mind concerning his magical XBox One:

He started off by proclaiming there is a super dgpu inside the apu (taking the leaked "What should be the next XBox document" early this year). Using weird logic and simply incorrect measurements of the die size. At some point, he realised he is wrong so he tried the 3d stacking idea, which didn't really get him anywhere. His current theory is surprising, though: The XBox One presented at the HotChips talk and everywhere else is just a cable box, it is not the "Real XBox One". This real box has apparently been withheld from 80% of all developers, and will be a supercharged apu. Apparently with all his wet dreams incorporated, using occasional vodoo technology he isn't able to unveil to us mere mortals. (There are about 200 logical fallacies and a few Nobel-prize winning discoveries in all his posts which I left out for brevity, but you should get the idea).

This is approximatly his current mindset. I'm sure he will add other features on his blog in the next days until 9/29 when the evil Sony empire will collapse.



47 MB of eSRAM already accounts for more than 2 Billions of transistors, wich you can breakdown as this :

- vanilla 32 MB eSRAM
- GPU eSRAM 5MB (it does have its own like every gpu)             (! shocker PS4 have eSRAM too !)
- Jaguar CPU eSRAM about 5 MB (4MB cache + instructions)
- Redundancy at about 4 MB, to improve yields. It means that if some of the eSRAM cells are defective, the chip can still work
- Dedicated unit also features tiny bit of eSRAM, like for the audio part, kinect, video encode/decode, etc..

then you add the cpu itself, the gpu itself, the dedicated hardware units and their transistors logic, bus,.. to link everything. You get about 5 Billions transistors on a 363 mm2 die.

Nothing is wrong, there s no empty space, everything matches  the known specs.



You forgot to mention the theory that the die is actually much bigger than 370mm ^2, actually upwrds of 500-520mm^2.



petalpusher said:

47 MB of eSRAM already accounts for more than 2 Billions of transistors, wich you can breakdown as this :

- vanilla 32 MB eSRAM
- GPU eSRAM 5MB (it does have its own like every gpu)             (! shocker PS4 have eSRAM too !)
- Jaguar CPU eSRAM about 5 MB (4MB cache + instructions)
- Redundancy at about 4 MB, to improve yields. It means that if some of the eSRAM cells are defective, the chip can still work
- Dedicated unit also features tiny bit of eSRAM, like for the audio part, kinect, video encode/decode, etc..

then you add the cpu itself, the gpu itself, the dedicated hardware units and their transistors logic, bus,.. to link everything. You get about 5 Billions transistors on a 363 mm2 die.

Nothing is wrong, there s no empty space, everything matches  the known specs.

I think you're confusing eSRAM/eDRAM and what L1/L2/L3 and in some cases L4 cache is.



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