I'm more practical.  I call it like it is, the WiiU is a blantant smack in the face to all Wii fans.  It is a commercial failure and it is selling worse - yes worse - than Virtual boy currently.    Even a price cut and great games can't revive this poor concept and worse execution (sales will go up for the holidays and flatline once again in January - watch and see).   But I predict Nintendo will learn from it's mistakes, kill the WiiU early (hey they killed the Virtual Boy...) and release a system, that, like Wii/DS did, innovates in ways the competition (including mobile) can't follow, and is once again a system for all (soccer moms, grandparents, tots and gamers) and not a system for Nintendo fanboys only.  That's something you can, on faith at least, b-e-l-i-e-v-e, because it can still happen.

Because we're both so verbose I'll respond to JL directly later, point to point, when I have time.

As a big Wii fan, I can say that this is how I feel as well. I don't see Wii U as a Wii successor. I don't see Wii U having any content that reaches beyond the hardcore Nintendo fan (Of which I'm not one of those) Wii U is a response to what Nintendo devs wanted to tinker with. Wii was a response to what gamers wanted and what the market needed. Wii U is a vanity product.

I'm baffled by every decision made in regards to Wii U; Accounts tied to hardware (archaic) No focus on online multiplayer in any first party software released since launch until 2014 (archaic) A Gamepad controller that is a hodgepodge of prior Nintendo ideas with a touch screen added. It is a step backwards to the Wii philosophy. Which is why sales are also the opposite of Wii's.

Nintendo devs need to be reigned in. They have too much creative input, and too much say in what gets made and how. They reject market reactions and unleash creativity. Why remake Wind Waker? When that game was the cause of so much fan backlash and really damaged the Zelda brand? Why make a NSMB game and be so lazy about the design that they don't even bother creating new music for it? Anti Gravity in Mario Kart? Why not make an F-Zero game instead, and keep Mario Kart, Mario Kart.

I agree with JohnLucas in regards to third parties and their self destructive behavior. But I don't think Wii U is part of some Nintendo grand plan. Wii U is a Nintendo developer vanity product, much like the 3DS, and N64 before it. It is a flop, and will remain a flop as long as the Gamepad albatross, and niche games remain its main draw.

I hope Nintendo rights this ship, but in the meantime, I'll be saving $$, watching the industry continue its circaling aroung the proverbial toilet.

As a big Wii fan, I can say that this is how I feel as well. I don't see Wii U as a Wii successor. I don't see Wii U having any content that reaches beyond the hardcore Nintendo fan (Of which I'm not one of those) Wii U is a response to what Nintendo devs wanted to tinker with. Wii was a response to what gamers wanted and what the market needed. Wii U is a vanity product.

I'm baffled by every decision made in regards to Wii U; Accounts tied to hardware (archaic) No focus on online multiplayer in any first party software released since launch until 2014 (archaic) A Gamepad controller that is a hodgepodge of prior Nintendo ideas with a touch screen added. It is a step backwards to the Wii philosophy. Which is why sales are also the opposite of Wii's.

Nintendo devs need to be reigned in. They have too much creative input, and too much say in what gets made and how. They reject market reactions and unleash creativity. Why remake Wind Waker? When that game was the cause of so much fan backlash and really damaged the Zelda brand? Why make a NSMB game and be so lazy about the design that they don't even bother creating new music for it? Anti Gravity in Mario Kart? Why not make an F-Zero game instead, and keep Mario Kart, Mario Kart.

I agree with JohnLucas in regards to third parties and their self destructive behavior. But I don't think Wii U is part of some Nintendo grand plan. Wii U is a Nintendo developer vanity product, much like the 3DS, and N64 before it. It is a flop, and will remain a flop as long as the Gamepad albatross, and niche games remain its main draw.

I hope Nintendo rights this ship, but in the meantime, I'll be saving $$, watching the industry continue its circaling aroung the proverbial toilet.

I LOVE it! Good discussion going on. Hey guys, don't let me & Gamerace have all the fun. Jump in here! Anytime.

Let's see here.
How many major console manufacturers are on the market right now? Let's count 'em.
There's Nintendo. That's 1.
There's Microsoft. That's 2.
There's Sony. That's 3.
OK.

How many consoles are there on the market right now? Let's count 'em.
There's the 3DS. That's 1.
The Wii U. That's 2.
The XBox 360. That's 3.
The PlayStation 3. That's 4.
The PlayStation Vita. That's 5.
(Since the Wii are DS are effectively discontinued we won't count them)

So you're expecting 1 console maker out of 3 to prop up the entire videogame industry??? One-third of all makers??? 1/3???
So you're expecting 2 consoles out of 5 to prop up the entire videogame industry??? Two-fifths of all consoles??? 2/5???
Well, of COURSE you are.
Because that's EXACTLY what Nintendo & their consoles did ALL OVER the 7th generation.
And when Wii U comes off the rocky road, that's EXACTLY what you're gonna see all over the 8th generation.
The 3DS is on fire after its rocky road period & the Wii U will soon join its handheld sibling on that smooth-as-silk asphalt.

This whole thing about generations.

Generations are not about tech.
The console generations speak of MARKET Generations not Tech Generations.
When certain products compete in the same market for buyers.
•That's why the Atari 2600 & the Mattel Intellivision were both considered to be part of the 2nd generation even though the Intellivision was miles ahead of the 2600 in technological prowess.
•Same reason why the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System & the SNK Neo Geo were all considered to be part of the 4th generation even though the Genesis's 512 color palette was embarrassed by the SNES's 32,768 color palette & the Neo Geo made them BOTH look like tinker toys since it could give 100% arcade-to-console conversion.
•Same reason why the Atari Jaguar, the 3DO, the Sega Saturn, the Sony PlayStation & the Nintendo 64 were all considered to be part of the 5th generation even though the Jaguar & the 3DO were trounced by the Saturn & the PS1 technologically & the 64-bit N64 was above even those two 32-bit platforms.
•Same reason why the Nintendo DS & the Sony PlayStation Portable were both considered to be 7th generation handhelds even though the DS was about the same as the 5th-gen N64 graphically & the PSP was about the same as the 6th-gen PS2 graphically.
•Same reason why the Nintendo 3DS & the Sony PlayStation Vita are both considered to be 8th generation handhelds even though the 3DS is just little beyond a 6th-gen Gamecube graphically & the Vita is pretty much a 7th-gen PS3 graphically.

Now that you understand what is meant by the term 'Generations', you will naturally understand that the Wii IS a 7th gen console despite being comparatively weaker than the 360 & PS3.
AND you will naturally understand that the Wii U IS an 8th gen console despite being comparatively weaker than the One & the PS4.
I'm sure you had no problem calling the PlayStation 2 a 6th gen console despite it being comparatively weaker than an XBox & Gamecube, did you?
I assume the same for the comparatively weaker Sega Dreamcast...

johnlucas said:

I'm sure real estate developers were just as estatic in the late 1990s/early 2000s before the housing bubble burst.
Zynga was one of the forces behind this mobile gaming boom but now the company better call Tom Petty 'cause they're FREE...Free Fallin'.

Let me tell you why I know everything ain't what it seems on this mobile gaming situation.
Input & Interface. Let's start with that.
The form factor of the tablet is PERFECT for what it needs to do.
TOO perfect. Which means it probably won't undergo any major changes.
The big tablet & the mini-tablet AKA the smartphone are respectively the size of a sheet of notebook paper & the size of a baseball card.
You whip out your easily concealable smartphone from your pocket, from your purse, from your holster & slide your fingers all over that multitouch touchscreen.
You hold your comfortably portable tablet in your lap, on the table, on the bed & slide your fingers all over that multitouch touchscreen.
It can never get any better than this! Don't have to have that hingey awkward contraption known as the laptop with keys that get missing over time.
Not stuck to a computer room like I was with overgrown desktop. This perfect touchable rounded rectangle is all I need it to be.

For most things this is not a bad thing to be.
For videogaming it's the WORST thing to be.

The tablet/smartphone will ALWAYS be that rounded rectangle form with the multitouch touchscreen.
Which means the games on it will ALWAYS end up playing more or less the same.
Videogaming DEPENDS on new ways to play to keep viable.

johnlucas said:

The Cloud won't save you. Input & interface once again. No unity between devices.
That's why consoles succeed. It gets rid of all that extra formatting crap. It's unified & solid within itself.
Microsoft created the XBox to become their own PC/Set-Top Box.
The Cloud destroys them because it removes the need for the actual XBox machine & all its associated devices like Kinect.
And since they're not really gamemakers what are they gonna get from becoming a hosting site for 3rd party games, one of many?
The 3rd parties would probably host their own games themselves & bypass Microsoft altogether.
Makes Microsoft obsolete.

Okay, let's continue this.

John your logic and facts here have more holes than swiss cheese.  Let's break it down.

And folks, please feel free to jump in here anytime.

I would expect any of the three (Nintendo, MS, Sony) having a new console out would lift or at least - at the very least - medigate the drop.  There are 3 out of 5 new systems (WiiU, 3DS, Vita) so the majority on the market are new systems and still there is a significant year on year decrease, again for what? The fourth year in a row?   IF this was all 7th gen systems, fine, expected but 60% are 8th gen systems!!   That is a unmidigated disaster.    

Now regretably, we can't access chartz on this website anymore, but I'm pretty sure 3DS is down ww year/year (up in NA in July though) and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Wii/WiiU sales were below 2012's Wii's sales (which were soft).   Nintendo hasn't been releasing monthly sales figures and NPD no longer publicly publishes so it's hard to determine but overall hardware across all systems (60% of them new) were DOWN 19% over 2012 which was DOWN 20% from 2011.

3DS and Vita should be in the peak year (based on sales histories) but it looks like they may have peaked really early and it's all downhill from here.   WiiU will also likely peak in 2014.   Which unless there's a massive turn-around unlike anything ever seen ever in video game history, will be a very low peak, even if they triple their current sales.

3DS is not on fire, it's smouldering.   WiiU?  Someone better blow on that ember before it goes out completely.

Yeah, I know it's a Market generation not tech.  That's WHY I say WiiU will be classified as 7th gen in the history books, along with Wii.   This is not unprecidented, both Atari 2600, and 5200 are considered 2nd gen.

While Wii introduced new concepts, definitely setting it apart from 6th gen systems, in innovation not in power.  WiiU has introduced NOTHING.  A 2nd screen? Sega Dreamcast had that.  A 2nd touch screen? DS had that.  There's no innovation.  It does not and will not compete with PS4/XB1.  It will live out it's sorry (my apologies Nintendo fans) life competing with PS3/360 and will be out of the market around the same time they are (2016).  By then Nintendo WILL introduce another console which WILL define 8th gen much moreso than PS4/XB1 are set to do.    

7th (2005 - 2016) gen will be recored thusly: Part 1: Wii,360,PS3, Part 2: 360/Kinect,PS3/Move,WiiU.  8th (2013 - 2023) Gen: Wii3, XB1, PS4

You are showing your ignorance of the mobile market here.  Zynga was focused on social (Facebook) games and came very late to the mobile market (only when it's audience had abandoned it).  Its indicative of nothing.

Digital sales (Mobile/PC primarily and console games and DLC) are now 61% of the market.  

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-05-us-gaming-spend-hit-USD2-88-billion-in-q2-npd

Gungho is a better example:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-07-29-gungho-sales-up-945-percent-in-first-half

Or Rovio:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-04-03-rovio-doubles-annual-revenues-to-152-2-million

While there are hundreds if not thousands of struggling mobile developers, there is unquestionable an immense market there and some of these companies and raking in mad money that would make Nintendo blush of embarrassment.    Many of these mobile companies could easily buy up a lot of 3rd party console developers (Tencent owns 48.4% of Epic Games for example)

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/03/21/tencent-sunk-330-million-into-epic-games-owns-nearly-half-of-s/

But console game developers are notoriously unprofitable or profit margins are downright lousy in comparison to mobile with much higher risks so why should they?   That's a sinking ship.    Nintendo included if they don't switch gears.

This concept is flawed.   Sony has been using the same controller for generations as has MS.  Nintendo actually went backwards in controller design from Wii to WiiU.  PC's have had the same keybound and mouse set-up for decades.   

And yet somehow new inventive games come out on all these systems every year.  PC gaming is experiencing a huge resurgence.  How is this possible without a controller breakthrough?   Your entire argument here is flawed and without any basis.

Besides which, you can bluetooth in any controller you want.  Including a Wiimote.   A great many mobile games have support for traditional controllers now and with Ouya, Gamepop, Gamestick, Razor, et al, this will only excellerate.   

You realize cloud eleminates the need for unity between devices?   You only need a (somewhat) standard control scheme between devices which is easily accomplished (see above) with bluetooth controllers.  

Ever heard of Netflix?  Which is so big now it's starting to threaten the cable market's hold on the industry?  XBox Live and PSN as cloud services (and likely with some other competition sure) would operate in the same manner.   Flat fee monthly charge for unlimited gameplay of whatever is your fancy at the moment on whatever device you happen to have handy.   This is a HIGHLY profittable model for Sony/MS and a whole lot less risky than hardware generations.

If Nintendo wants to remain making hardware once things goto the clouds, they really will need a new Wii.  Something with a fun, accessible, control scheme that opens new gameplay not possible on cloud games (like Wii Sports vs CoD on cloud).   But we're still at least a couple years away from that.

I don't think anything there needs a rebuttal.  

While you are right in that the current console and mobile game markets are unstable and must and will change, you still have no basis for assuming WiiU (which is just another HD 7th gen console after all) is somehow different than anything else out there to 'save' the industry from itself.

Right now all the WiiU and 3DS have to do is connect Nintendo to consumers for it's games.  3DS is doing a decent job of that.  Clearly WiiU is not.  The gamepad is a turn-off to consumers and adds a lot to the cost.  A double-whammy kick to Nintendo's groins.  Plus of course, it helps when Nintendo has some games on the system for people to play and buy it for.  This WiiU drought was absurb, even by Nintendo's horrid standard.   But games and price aside, WiiU remains an unappealing system.     I get what Nintendo's vision was for it, but the execution on both 3DS and WiiU was horrid and WiiU's gamepad is devastatingly regressive.  They have shot themselves in the foot with that and a lot of their policies.   They need to stop playing it safe and take some big Wii-type risks or they will find themselves in Blackberry's position (or MS on mobile or Zynga or anyone other giant that didn't keep up with the times).   But don't worry, worse case scenario - Gungho buys them out and puts their IPs on mobile.

I´m not sure how many people realize one of the main reasons for the Wii´s success was the focus on arcade like gameplay..notice that most games responsible for turning the system into a huge phenomenon were games that had 'arcade gameplay' (I´m sure you know what I mean by that)..I think a cheap system, which is focused on high quality, local multiplayer, arcade like gameplay games, would go a long way in helping Nintendo achieve at least a good degree of success...AND, of course, taking whatever necessary measures to make sure there are no more of these fucking 7 month droughts.

I agree.  Except that within the next year there will be at least a half dozen such consoles on the market with the Android/iOS consoles.    So Nintendo also needs to set themselves apart from that.    And those consoles play some Wii games already (including Conduit) blurring the lines.      

Mobile has destroyed the value proposition for some of Nintendo's games.  We did buy Brain Age Academy back in 2007 for $50 but no one would touch Rhythym Heaven Fever for $30 in 2012.   Even NSMB seems ridiculously overpriced compared to mobile games.    Zelda, Metroid, etc are okay but how often do those games come out?    

So moreso than ever before Nintendo needs the kind of 'gimmick' or gamechanger that the Wiimote provided.   IT must be distinct and unique onto itself to justify a seperate console purchase just to play Nintendo's (awesome) games.  But instead they sought to emulate the competition (that is mobile) poorly with the gamepad.

Outside of the Wii, you see what Nintendo does ahead of time, and what it is trying.  It went to the second screen with the DS, to see if it would work or not.  It did.  So, it decided to bring that home.  It had done Virtual Boy in the past, and hinted at 3D, and saw what would or would not work.  With the Wii, the idea they had was to win the market through having a unique interface.  Microsoft and Sony got wise to that actually, and were able to put together a second screen solution so Nintendo got muted.

Nintendo went 3D without glasses with the 3DS to differentiate.  That looks like it isn't so hot.  They also tried the second screen with the WIi U, and that didn't really catch on at all.  The said "gimmicks" are how Nintendo IS trying to differentiate itself.  When they do this, they aren't gimmicks, but they are features.

Reality is now that we might be gamed out, as far as a population goes.  The price has dropped a lot, because there is so much content. Now free to play and freemium are the norm.  Could be there is a need to cull things out some, and contract and do a mini-crash.  But that is going to impact people a lot here.