Because Im trying to distinguish how literal y'all are taking him for. How seriously y'all are taking him

JohnLucas is like a Bible thumper here.
Cept he's using facts and armchair analysis

Zod95 said: Final-Fan said: 2a2.  Here's an example of a recent SHMUP, not one from 1990 or whatever.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXbgy20EgqY That seems to be retro. If you think it isn't, then make a pool: "Is this game retro? Yes/No" and see the results. As for my opinion, if that game, besides dated graphics, doesn't present a gameplay enough sophisticated to be clearly differentiated from the shoot-em-ups from previous generations and/or content significantly bigger and deeper...then it's retro. Final-Fan said: 2a3.  Believe me, I've played deep Nintendo games.  Then tell me the deepest Nintendo game you've ever played. But don't tell me it's deep because it has a touching story or an amazing graphic art. That's subjective and thus speculative. Tell me about a Nintendo game that is very deep because of a measurable factor that I can't ignore or understand in a different way (objective and thus non-speculative). Final-Fan said: 2a4a.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVcTdr1K7So That's a video of a game for the 1998 Olympics, with many events.  To be honest though I've just realized that I'm not even sure what this Wii Sports argument it really about.  FIFA 13 actually came out for the Wii!  So what's all this debate about Wii Sports vs. whatever accomplishing in the end?  First, you told me just 1 example. I'm still waiting for the other 9. Second, if you don't remember I tell you: Wii is known (and defined) by it's most emblematic games, including Wii series, Mario & family, dance and fitness games and motion 3rd party games. All together, they represent more than a half of the Wii's software totals...and all of them are retro / mini-games (they all lack of 1 or more of these: high quality graphics, sophisticated gameplay, deep content). FIFA 13 has come to Wii, that's true. But, in addition to not being representative on the platform, its graphics on the Wii aren't 7th gen for sure. And I wouldn't bet its gameplay and content are precisely the same as in PS3 or X360. Wii can't be considered 7th gen if only a few of its games have (or might have) only some 7th gen aspects. That's too little. 2a4b1.  Yes you've found more than 10 games. But there's a tiny little problem: "realistic graphics" is not 1 of the 9 specifications I had listed. Maybe you would like to refer to photo-realistic environments but that's something quite different. A photo-realistic environment is an area copied from reality, like the city of London in The Getaway or St Petersburg in Project Gotham. That's photo-realism, that demands hard work, that's not Nintendo style. Final-Fan said: I don't know what you mean by "simulating gameplay". 2a4b2.  How you don't know that?? It's about games that have gamplay that simulates reality. For example, a racing game in which cars behave like they behave in real life. Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmireIwW2J0. That's simulating gameplay, that demands hard work, that's not Nintendo style. Final-Fan said: Also lazy for square mileage research, especially since that information doesn't necessarily exist for many games. True. But it does exist when the game is huge...which is not the case of any Nintendo game. Games like Test Drive, Just Cause and Fuel have much more than 300km2. Some might have 5 times more, others 10, others 20, etc. But Nintendo hasn't 1 single title with the easily reachable 300km2 mark. Why would that be if the company has so much money to invest in games?...hum, tough question...maybe because that demands hard work and that's not Nintendo style.   Final-Fan said: 2b.  "Doesn't" is actually correct grammar, thank you very much.  As for the changes you mention, I'm afraid I haven't done the research   I will say about your later comment that Wii Sports is not intended to be the epitome of sports games on the Wii. 2c.  I don't see how the Mii-based game is not an evolution.  It is totally unlike previous Nintendo sports games.  It's just an evolution you don't like. It's the epitome of the sales (results --> what Wii actually is) and the protagonist of the console since it was the most bundled game with the system (intentions --> what Wii was sought to be). Wii Sports sales weren't an accident, they are the result of the Nintendo's core strategy. And, at the same time, Wii Sports is evolution of nothing. Not considering motion, the game is a regression from what Nintendo has done in Game Cube at every aspect. How you do know I don't like them? I like retro games. Yet, I'm still able to understand that: retro --> games from the past --> regression --> no evolution. There are tastes and there are facts. I'm not discussing tastes here. You can't even imagine the games I like the most. Final-Fan said: 3.  One of the biggest reasons I called bullshit on the HDD thing was that you just slapped a frankly arbitrary number on the amount that the PS3 was better than the Wii.  Having a hard drive is an advantage, yes.  But saying it's 40x better because the standard HDD is 40x as big as the Wii's internal storage is just nonsense.  I guess the Wii is infinitely better than the 360 in that case, because there is a version of the 360 that didn't come with any internal storage at all!  The PS3's advantage is having a hard drive at all and not having a specific size of hard drive (that is freely swappable for a bigger one anyway, itself an advantage over the 360) so attaching a particular number by the logic of the size difference with the Wii's internal storage is nonsense.  I know the overall result I get is an estimate based on rough calcs. But at least that's a number. I don't need to get the most precise number. Just one precise enough to tell me the order of magnitude. And PS3's power is definitely from a different order of magnitude than Wii's. I challenge you to say it's not. Final-Fan said: The fun you had in SA is a direct result of SM64 showing Sega how to do it.  4.  Like the fun you have in Mario Galaxy is a direct result of Sonic Adventure 2 showing Nintendo how to do it.

2a2.  In what way are the graphics "dated"?  And I am not an expert on the SHMUP genre but as one who has played many of those games from several different generations I can confidently assure you that the games are evolving at least as much as (for instance) your sports game example.  The "bullet hell" type of game went from just throwing a lot of bullets on the screen to making it so crowded that you have to predict the pattern and dance through it; then a game called Ikaruga pioneered a system where there were black and white bullets and it was impossible to dodge them all, but you could change between being immune to black or white, and also absorb that color to use as a powerup.  The game I linked makes the player manage up to like half a dozen different systems of some kind (I watched the video but I forget) and blah blah blah.  You speak from ignorance when you say the genre isn't developing compared to other genres, or that this particular game isn't evolved. 

2a3.  You may freely choose to ignore this paragraph and focus on the next one:  "The deepest Nintendo game I've ever played" is certainly a subjective judgment so I guess it is impossible for me to say.  But seriously, if you open this request by banning artistic vision and the quality of the storyline from consideration, I would rather get a more detailed idea of what counts as acceptable metrics.  Does ingenius level design count?  Do only the sheer number of levels enter into consideration?  Does the amount of in-game bonus content count?  (i.e. things you find by exploring withing the game that aren't necessary to completing the game.)  Does it count for less if it's just something literally unlocked and shown to you as bonus content outside the regular game?  If Nintendo made a game about drilling to the center of a planet, would that automatically count as the "deepest" game? 

Since you asked about a Nintendo game that is "very deep", I'll go ahead and answer with Metroid Prime.  That is a game with very good graphics for its day.  It has a great atmosphere and huge levels that all interconnect.  It has a very deep backstory that can be investigated by players that choose to examine the environment around them and see the clues and records of what has happened, as well as find out all about the flora and fauna.  This information can be reviewed after being seen by the player at their leisure.  It has a good combat system that was very original and very different from earlier Metroid games (which were 2D side scrollers while Prime is 3D and first person).  It is an objective fact that it received practically universal acclaim, but I guess that is only objective evidence that is is a "good" game, not a "deep" one. 

2a4a.  I dispute that the Wii's Mario games don't have "high quality graphics" (which should not be taken to mean that I concede the other claims).  I dispute that the Wii's graphics are "not 7th gen", and as evidence I say that the Wii indisputably can and has done graphics far superior to the graphics of previous generations (Xbox being generally considered the best of 6th gen).  That makes it 7th gen. 

2a4b1.  I was not aware that that is what you meant by photorealistic.  In that case, I can only disagree that copying an existing environment rather than forging a completely new environment is a sign of harder work. 

2a4b2.  "Simulating gameplay", without context, as incredibly unclear.  If you'd said "simulation-type gameplay" or "reality-simulating gameplay" then I would have more than likely understood what you meant.  Simulator games are, indeed, to the best of my knowledge "not Nintendo's style", which is a completely different thing from saying "hard work" isn't their style. 

2a4b3.  Do you know how much area the largest Nintendo game worlds have?  Do you know how big Metroid Prime is?  Do you know how big ANY of them are?  Unless you do you are just blowing smoke out your ass. 

2b&c.  You've given me a clear impression of disdain for Wii Sports.  Perhaps I was mistaken in developing that impression.  What is your opinion of Wii Sports as far as how much you personally enjoy it? 

But actually, that's not what I said.  I said that the evolution was what you didn't like, not the game itself.  The evolution you deny the existence of.  Let's examine that.  What game like Wii Sports has ever existed in the past?  It was created to show off the Wii's motion controls, and to introduce the Wii's Mii system.  There had been games before that used motion controls.  There had been games before that let you customize the face of your character.  But I really don't see how you can say that Wii Sports was regressing to an earlier generation of games when IMO it's really unlike earlier generations of games!  Just because it is simplistic doesn't mean it is simplistic in a similar way to the simplicity of NES games, or SNES or whatever. 

You may be able to make a definition of "retro" that Wii Sports fits, but at that point "retro" is NOT going to be synonymous with "game from the past" or "not an evolution".  Why is it impossible for something to evolve into something simpler? 

3.  The PS3's hard drive capability does not put it in a different magnitude of power as far as games are concerned compared with not having a hard drive, as the Xbox 360 Core did and as the Wii does.  Would you say that the PS3 is in a different magnitude of power compared with the 360 Core? 

4.  Please explain to me all of the things that SA did, which previous games had not done, that SMG subsequently did in a similar way. 

Lots of stuff going on in the real world with me right now. That's why I've been M.I.A. this week.

But this Friday I return to the VGChartz Forum in Full.
It's gonna be fun.
John Lucas

Looking forward to it:)

80k week ending Nov 2nd, nearly half what you expected .... (I waited as promised) :P

hyperbole?  if he was using artistic license he should've made that clear.  WHat he did instead is make specific predictions and you're damn right he should be held accountable for them.  

y'all take your shit too seriously.a

With over 8m left to sell for WiiU to hit your 12m target, WiiU needs to go from 80k this week to 1m average for the rest of the year

Then wait again^ Year is not over yet :)

And then wait for Mario kart ect? How much waiting do you need?