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Forums - Microsoft - Further evidence that MS is potentially having hardware issues in cooling.

Chris Hu on 12 June 2013

22nm chips will be cheaper then 32nm chips by early 2015.  I'm guessing 14nm chips will be cheaper then 32nm by 2017.  Also chips don't have to be cheaper in order to decrease the cost of the console smaller chips means smaller fans, smaller cases, less weight, less material to build cheaper to ship etc.



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ethomaz on 12 June 2013
Solid-Stark said:
Chris Hu said:

It should be a lot smaller with the first redesign especially if they skip the 22nm process (which they really should) and wait for 14nm chips for the first redesign.

It's not clear whether the PS4/XbOne APU chips are 32nm or 28nm. Currently, signs point to a 32nm fab proccess. This is a solid conjecture by Superchunk.

AMD will be moving to 28nm for Steamroller Q4 2013/Q1 2014, and then to 22nm or 20nm for Excavator sometime in 2015. Going from current 32nm (or 28nm which wouldn't help the case in point) to 22nm or 20nm in two years wouldn't enable a drastic slimmer redesign. It's not like PS360 going from 90nm to 45nm(and 40nm for PS3 RSX) which enabled slimmer designs.  Again, Superchunk may be on to something.

For reference, Intel will be on 14nm fab process second half next year with Broadwell, and AMD will be in 22nm or 20nm for Excavator sometime in 2015. It's not clear (or been discussed by AMD) where they will be after Excavator. We will have to wait till after Excavator (2015 or later) to see a drastically slimmer XbOne if it comes down to components and these poor yield and over heating issues are true. However, I suppose Microsoft can do some reworkings when it comes to cooling for the current chipset (again assuming this rumors are true.)

AMD APUs are made with 28nm... AMD already stated that.

22nm only Intel can do right now... AMD have still one year or more to move to massive 22nm production...

Below that neither Intel is working yet... 20nm is planned to 2015... and 14nm we won't see this console generation.



ethomaz on 12 June 2013
Chris Hu said:

22nm chips will be cheaper then 32nm chips by early 2015.  I'm guessing 14nm chips will be cheaper then 32nm by 2017.  Also chips don't have to be cheaper in order to decrease the cost of the console smaller chips means smaller fans, smaller cases, less weight, less material to build cheaper to ship etc.

You have some good dates ... and just to add the process transiction is getting slow and more slow... the Moore's law is dying.



Solid-Stark on 13 June 2013
ethomaz said:
Solid-Stark said:
Chris Hu said:

It should be a lot smaller with the first redesign especially if they skip the 22nm process (which they really should) and wait for 14nm chips for the first redesign.

It's not clear whether the PS4/XbOne APU chips are 32nm or 28nm. Currently, signs point to a 32nm fab proccess. This is a solid conjecture by Superchunk.

AMD will be moving to 28nm for Steamroller Q4 2013/Q1 2014, and then to 22nm or 20nm for Excavator sometime in 2015. Going from current 32nm (or 28nm which wouldn't help the case in point) to 22nm or 20nm in two years wouldn't enable a drastic slimmer redesign. It's not like PS360 going from 90nm to 45nm(and 40nm for PS3 RSX) which enabled slimmer designs.  Again, Superchunk may be on to something.

For reference, Intel will be on 14nm fab process second half next year with Broadwell, and AMD will be in 22nm or 20nm for Excavator sometime in 2015. It's not clear (or been discussed by AMD) where they will be after Excavator. We will have to wait till after Excavator (2015 or later) to see a drastically slimmer XbOne if it comes down to components and these poor yield and over heating issues are true. However, I suppose Microsoft can do some reworkings when it comes to cooling for the current chipset (again assuming this rumors are true.)

AMD APUs are made with 28nm... AMD already stated that.

22nm only Intel can do right now... AMD have still one year or more to move to massive 22nm production...

Below that neither Intel is working yet... 20nm is planned to 2015... and 14nm we won't see this console generation.

Great.

Well there goes a better picture.

I had understood Broadwell was going to be 14nm sometime late next year. My mistake.



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Gaming on: PS4 Pro, Switch, SNES Mini, Wii U, PC (i5-7400, GTX 1060)

Normando on 13 June 2013

Jesus. The Xbox One is huge...it probably is for cooling reasons though. Hard to imagine that two systems that have pretty similar specs could be so different in size.



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Chris Hu on 13 June 2013

I know eventually there will be no more further die shrinks and mayor advances in technology but I expect the X1 will have at least one major redesign even if it comes without a die shrink they could always turn it into a top loader sometime in the future.



superspeedybull on 13 June 2013
Adinnieken said:
superchunk said:

This is obviously an assumption on my part based on generalization of the hardware physical size difference between Xbox One and PS4.

Considerations:

1) Existing rumors from over a year that discuss issues MS is having with its yields on its APU.
2) My comparison thread that shows MSony have nearly identical configurations internally.

  • same cpu
  • MS using smaller gpu but adding 32MB of embedded memory on APU
  • both  have separate 8gbs of ram (separate in terms of not in apu)
  • 500gb HDDs
  • PS4 has internal PSU while Xbone uses brick in power cord (this is a huge difference here)
  • BR drive in both
  • Same basic other connections (usb, hdmi, etc)

Yet, the Xbox One is significantly larger. Why? The only real possibility is cooling. MS has a much larger need to reduce internal heat on their configuration than Sony does. Thus they have a larger cooling solution and increased inside volume in order to dissipate heat better.

While at surface value this is a big so the fuck what scenario, when you take it into account along with the rumors of MS having issues with their APUs due to added complexity of having eSRAM on the chip, then you have a supported concern that yes, this device very well may have cooling issues which was the big culprit in RROD.

Obviously take this with a big grain of salt as its just my assumptions. However, I think it makes perfect sense.

No.

The only console that had a problem during their E3 presentation was the PS4 with two separate demos crashing.  In each case the GPU obviously had problems.

No, the size of the Xbox One is so it looks more like a piece of home entertainment equipement.

The PS4 is 12.8" deep.  The Xbox One is 10.4" deep.
The PS4 is 10.8" long.  The Xbox One is 13.5" long.

If you turn the PS4 on its side, it's almost the same dimension as the Xbox One.  It's just 3/4" longer, yet just under a 1/2" narrower. 

The only dimension where the PS4 is signficantly smaller, by percentage, is height.  Here the PS4 is 2.1" tall, and the Xbox One is 3.2".

Wow!  Oh My GOSH!!!!  The Xbox One is SO much bigger!!!

The difference in area is 2.16" square.  Do you really think 2"sq is going to make a big difference in terms of cooling?


Battlefield 4 crashed on the Xbox One. Assassins Creed froze but unfroze and Destiny had a lag problem that lasted for 2 seconds in which that was a server problem not a PS4 problem.



tres on 13 June 2013
superspeedybull said:
Adinnieken said:
superchunk said:

This is obviously an assumption on my part based on generalization of the hardware physical size difference between Xbox One and PS4.

Considerations:

1) Existing rumors from over a year that discuss issues MS is having with its yields on its APU.
2) My comparison thread that shows MSony have nearly identical configurations internally.

  • same cpu
  • MS using smaller gpu but adding 32MB of embedded memory on APU
  • both  have separate 8gbs of ram (separate in terms of not in apu)
  • 500gb HDDs
  • PS4 has internal PSU while Xbone uses brick in power cord (this is a huge difference here)
  • BR drive in both
  • Same basic other connections (usb, hdmi, etc)

Yet, the Xbox One is significantly larger. Why? The only real possibility is cooling. MS has a much larger need to reduce internal heat on their configuration than Sony does. Thus they have a larger cooling solution and increased inside volume in order to dissipate heat better.

While at surface value this is a big so the fuck what scenario, when you take it into account along with the rumors of MS having issues with their APUs due to added complexity of having eSRAM on the chip, then you have a supported concern that yes, this device very well may have cooling issues which was the big culprit in RROD.

Obviously take this with a big grain of salt as its just my assumptions. However, I think it makes perfect sense.

No.

The only console that had a problem during their E3 presentation was the PS4 with two separate demos crashing.  In each case the GPU obviously had problems.

No, the size of the Xbox One is so it looks more like a piece of home entertainment equipement.

The PS4 is 12.8" deep.  The Xbox One is 10.4" deep.
The PS4 is 10.8" long.  The Xbox One is 13.5" long.

If you turn the PS4 on its side, it's almost the same dimension as the Xbox One.  It's just 3/4" longer, yet just under a 1/2" narrower. 

The only dimension where the PS4 is signficantly smaller, by percentage, is height.  Here the PS4 is 2.1" tall, and the Xbox One is 3.2".

Wow!  Oh My GOSH!!!!  The Xbox One is SO much bigger!!!

The difference in area is 2.16" square.  Do you really think 2"sq is going to make a big difference in terms of cooling?


Battlefield 4 crashed on the Xbox One. Assassins Creed froze but unfroze and Destiny had a lag problem that lasted for 2 seconds in which that was a server problem not a PS4 problem.

battlefield 4 didnt crash for what i recall it was no audio much like crimson dragon.  



coolguy on 13 June 2013

there is a huge topic on this at neogaf they might even down down grade the gpu



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endimion on 13 June 2013
superchunk said:

 

This is obviously an assumption on my part based on generalization of the hardware physical size difference between Xbox One and PS4.

Considerations:

1) Existing rumors from over a year that discuss issues MS is having with its yields on its APU.
2) My comparison thread that shows MSony have nearly identical configurations internally.

  • same cpu
  • MS using smaller gpu but adding 32MB of embedded memory on APU
  • both  have separate 8gbs of ram (separate in terms of not in apu)
  • 500gb HDDs
  • PS4 has internal PSU while Xbone uses brick in power cord (this is a huge difference here)
  • BR drive in both
  • Same basic other connections (usb, hdmi, etc)

Yet, the Xbox One is significantly larger. Why? The only real possibility is cooling. MS has a much larger need to reduce internal heat on their configuration than Sony does. Thus they have a larger cooling solution and increased inside volume in order to dissipate heat better.

While at surface value this is a big so the fuck what scenario, when you take it into account along with the rumors of MS having issues with their APUs due to added complexity of having eSRAM on the chip, then you have a supported concern that yes, this device very well may have cooling issues which was the big culprit in RROD.

Obviously take this with a big grain of salt as its just my assumptions. However, I think it makes perfect sense.

yeap or it could be as simple as to srll you a new one slimer every couple years.... if you start small it becomes harder to get even smaller...

or it could be that since it is meant to be linked to your cable box it has a size to fit most of them

or it's just a design choice... I personnaly really like that design... the PS4 is nice too way better looking IMO than the giant grill box they did last time around.... but it has too much of a Wii  feel for me