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Forums - Politics - Are the pillars of the state falling?

Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
SamuelRSmith said:
insomniac17 said:

It sure would be nice, but I don't think the state is done yet. Who knows what will come in the future, but near term, I see governments really tightening control in many areas. They certainly won't give up their power quietly.


It's trying to extend and build itself up, yes, but its very foundations are cracking, that's what is important.

Of course they won't give up power quietly, they're psychopaths and tyrants. They NEVER give up their power quietly. But, really, before the decade's out, the very ideas behind what the state is, where it gets its power from, and why it is needed, will all be significantly challenged. Hell, within 5 years, complying with the state will be optional, so long as you keep your head down. You'll be able to buy everything you need to survive (and more), with untraceable currencies, you'll be able to communicate without being spied on, your very existance could happen under their nose, and they wouldn't know.

Another case in point, back to drones. Domestic drones are not even fully deployed in the US, yet... and there's already a company selling a device that will make it impossible for a drone to operate over your property. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2013-03/company-to-make-antidrone-tech-available-to-the-masses

You've really become more vitriolic in the last half-year, haven't you?

Ultimately, the government's lack of control over the internet is only because A: the old guys that run the government still don't quite "get" the internet, and B: The profits of the internet's current relative freedom outweigh the costs (at the end of the day, even the big government guys know that piracy really isn't that huge of a deal).

The question of using the internet to "fight the power" is much like the question of using guns to fight the power. In both cases, if the state really cared, they'd fuck your shit up six ways from sunday.

Iran is actually a decent case study in this. They've blocked VPN access and are in the process of cutting the entire country off from the world-wide-web (having an Iran Wide Web as a replacement). How well the Iranian people will be able to circumvent these changes will demonstrate how the balance of power will tip vis-a-vis the internet when a state really decides that the freedoms of the net are too much of a burden.


Eh, your half right.  The Internet can be shut off pretty eaisly.  (Though not without quite the backlash in a western country.  Well until CYBER HACKERS! gets blown up to such a panic countries convince people each nation needs it's own private interent.

 

However guns actually does provide a pretty huge threat to the government, at least in the "dictator control" scenario.  As has been shown time and time agan, guerilla warfare when less equiped can be a hell of a pain for a government and even bring it down....

and few guerillia armies would be as well armed as a US one.   They'd be missing some of the heavier stuff like RPG's, but chances are such things would be aquired fairly quickly in the chaos and raids on various armories. 

Considering your political science background you really should know better in this regard.

Guerilla armies only work when the opposition has (or is forced to have) scruples, or the country is just weak. As Russia proved in Chechnya: if you're willing to just flatten the area you're supposed to be pacifying, you can make them a non-factor pretty quickly. You lose any attempt at the moral high ground in the process, but all of the so-called difficulties of modern guerilla warfare break down to the fact that no-one, even countries like Syria, are willing or have the geopolitical immunities to use scorched-earth tactics on their own people (Syria could probably pull it off, but then they definitely would be invaded and lose. Russia could pull it off because no-one's willing to take a bite out of that apple. China could probably do it too).



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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SamuelRSmith said:


I just want what's best for people, and I'm optimistic that we'll be close to that within the next few years, if that's your definition of "vitriolic", then, yeah, sure.

It sounds like you don't quite "get" the Internet, either, and controlling it is not as simple as you may think it is. Short of ripping up the entire infrastructure, and raiding every home to remove all the network components, there is literally no way that a Government can effectively do anything to the Internet. Considering how much the special interests that fund most Governments are now hooked to it.. it's not going to happen (you think Wall Street's going to give up algo-trading any time soon?)

Look at China. Over last Christmas, they deployed their "next gen Great Firewall" that was supposed to be all-powerful and even harder to crack. My girlfriend put that to the test when she went home to visit her parents in Feb. On the car journey between the airport and her home, she was on Facebook. Through her phone.

As for Iran. Iran didn't "block VPN", that's impossible. They just blocked popular VPN providers. Blocking proxy servers and VPN providers is kinda like trying to fight bed bugs in a world where DDT is banned. For everyone you kill, 10 more pop up. You say that they're deploying some kind of "iran wide web". If this comes to fruition, it'll be pointless within a month. First, the IWW would become too large to monitor for Iran within an incredibly short period of time, second, nothing's stopping activists from essentially creating little portals, or for people beyond the border to broadcast connections across to Iran, and for activists within Iran from putting up relayers.

These are just ideas I've come up with from the top of my head, if the IWW gets deployed, there will be several million Iranians trying to subvert it every single day, as well as people from all over the world.

"I always made one prayer to God, a very short one. Here it is: "O Lord, make our enemies quite ridiculous!" God granted it." - Voltaire.

 

""We're all standing in front of this mountain, and it's called Government. We don't know what to do with it, we can scream at it and say 'go away, go away, go away'... it's not getting us very far.

But some very clever people in the private sector have figured out how to dig underneath it, go around it, scale it with special new tools. That's what I think of the digital revolution" -- Jeffrey Tucker"


 

 

This assumes that we want to have the internet at all, as opposed to a completely private, state-maintained network, which they could then grant the special interests access to. Shut down the DNS Root servers and the average person is completely lost. Hit other key points and the whole thing comes tumbling down. Would all communication be killed? No, but the whole thing would become a massive excercise in frustration.

China's case is a little similar, because they want the fruits of capitalism without the messiness of civil and political freedoms, and simply can't reconcile the two, leading to systems that are accessible enough to then be undermined by comparatively wealthy Chinese. If the government got it in their head that the internet as a whole was more of a liability than an asset, they could largely crush it

In Iran's case (though this wouldn't work as well for other countries) who is going to set up cross-border relays of a "radio free europe" type? The gulf monarchies? Iraq? Azerbaijan? Afghanistan? Turkmenistan? Pakistan? Likely not.

and yes, calling "them" (being the people of the government) "psychopaths and tyrants" is pretty vitriolic, considering most of the folks you dislike are just technocrats, perfectly sane and relatively benign people



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

I don't think the things you described will change much. And if they did, it wouldn't be the fall of corrupt and evil insttitutions. It would be replacing one set of fallible, incompetent humans with another.

What I'm saying is that things won't suddenly get better if the current leadership was removed.



Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
SamuelRSmith said:
insomniac17 said:

It sure would be nice, but I don't think the state is done yet. Who knows what will come in the future, but near term, I see governments really tightening control in many areas. They certainly won't give up their power quietly.


It's trying to extend and build itself up, yes, but its very foundations are cracking, that's what is important.

Of course they won't give up power quietly, they're psychopaths and tyrants. They NEVER give up their power quietly. But, really, before the decade's out, the very ideas behind what the state is, where it gets its power from, and why it is needed, will all be significantly challenged. Hell, within 5 years, complying with the state will be optional, so long as you keep your head down. You'll be able to buy everything you need to survive (and more), with untraceable currencies, you'll be able to communicate without being spied on, your very existance could happen under their nose, and they wouldn't know.

Another case in point, back to drones. Domestic drones are not even fully deployed in the US, yet... and there's already a company selling a device that will make it impossible for a drone to operate over your property. http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2013-03/company-to-make-antidrone-tech-available-to-the-masses

You've really become more vitriolic in the last half-year, haven't you?

Ultimately, the government's lack of control over the internet is only because A: the old guys that run the government still don't quite "get" the internet, and B: The profits of the internet's current relative freedom outweigh the costs (at the end of the day, even the big government guys know that piracy really isn't that huge of a deal).

The question of using the internet to "fight the power" is much like the question of using guns to fight the power. In both cases, if the state really cared, they'd fuck your shit up six ways from sunday.

Iran is actually a decent case study in this. They've blocked VPN access and are in the process of cutting the entire country off from the world-wide-web (having an Iran Wide Web as a replacement). How well the Iranian people will be able to circumvent these changes will demonstrate how the balance of power will tip vis-a-vis the internet when a state really decides that the freedoms of the net are too much of a burden.


Eh, your half right.  The Internet can be shut off pretty eaisly.  (Though not without quite the backlash in a western country.  Well until CYBER HACKERS! gets blown up to such a panic countries convince people each nation needs it's own private interent.

 

However guns actually does provide a pretty huge threat to the government, at least in the "dictator control" scenario.  As has been shown time and time agan, guerilla warfare when less equiped can be a hell of a pain for a government and even bring it down....

and few guerillia armies would be as well armed as a US one.   They'd be missing some of the heavier stuff like RPG's, but chances are such things would be aquired fairly quickly in the chaos and raids on various armories. 

Considering your political science background you really should know better in this regard.

Guerilla armies only work when the opposition has (or is forced to have) scruples, or the country is just weak. As Russia proved in Chechnya: if you're willing to just flatten the area you're supposed to be pacifying, you can make them a non-factor pretty quickly. You lose any attempt at the moral high ground in the process, but all of the so-called difficulties of modern guerilla warfare break down to the fact that no-one, even countries like Syria, are willing or have the geopolitical immunities to use scorched-earth tactics on their own people (Syria could probably pull it off, but then they definitely would be invaded and lose. Russia could pull it off because no-one's willing to take a bite out of that apple. China could probably do it too).

I wouldn't really call Chechnya pacified.... and when your talking an entire country....



It will for quite a bit, but authoritarianism vs. libertarianism runs in cycles. Just like the industrial revolution led to freedom and liberty, but reverted back to statism when governments caught up, so will the information age have state involvement sometime down the line. The best we can do is mitigate and regulate the power of the state through pressure.



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sc94597 said:
It will for quite a bit, but authoritarianism vs. libertarianism runs in cycles. Just like the industrial revolution led to freedom and liberty, but reverted back to statism when governments caught up, so will the information age have state involvement sometime down the line. The best we can do is mitigate and regulate the power of the state through pressure.

It's not cyclical so much as predicated upon a nation's primary mode of production. The information age will lead to a broadening decentralization in some respects because more people will be able to participate in ways that they've never been able to participate before. Where anti-democratic backlash hits in is at the peak of inequality spurred by rapid economic change, whether it's put-upon peasants or industrial laborers seeking justice against the fast-moving rapacious forces of capitalism, the noveaux riche fearing such a peasant revolt and making sure that only the right people get a say in how things are run, or the old middle class looking askance at how the once-great land has become rapidly deformed and seeking a forcible return to national purity.


The creeping authoritarianism of the welfare state in the developed world was due to a different factor, the fact that modern systems have become too complicated for anyone to manage fairly and need regulation. The information age allows transparency to catch up to that, so while we won't see government's role diminished per se, we will see the ability of the bureaucracy and special interests to draft and run their own policies diminish to naught.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
sc94597 said:
It will for quite a bit, but authoritarianism vs. libertarianism runs in cycles. Just like the industrial revolution led to freedom and liberty, but reverted back to statism when governments caught up, so will the information age have state involvement sometime down the line. The best we can do is mitigate and regulate the power of the state through pressure.

It's not cyclical so much as predicated upon a nation's primary mode of production. The information age will lead to a broadening decentralization in some respects because more people will be able to participate in ways that they've never been able to participate before. Where anti-democratic backlash hits in is at the peak of inequality spurred by rapid economic change, whether it's put-upon peasants or industrial laborers seeking justice against the fast-moving rapacious forces of capitalism, the noveaux riche fearing such a peasant revolt and making sure that only the right people get a say in how things are run, or the old middle class looking askance at how the once-great land has become rapidly deformed and seeking a forcible return to national purity.


The creeping authoritarianism of the welfare state in the developed world was due to a different factor, the fact that modern systems have become too complicated for anyone to manage fairly and need regulation. The information age allows transparency to catch up to that, so while we won't see government's role diminished per se, we will see the ability of the bureaucracy and special interests to draft and run their own policies diminish to naught.

How long could our newly found freedom of information last though? Eventually there will be a loop-hole for these special interests groups. Nevertheless a fully/almost-fully audited system with transparency is one I think all Americans will agree is a good thing, regardless of left-right paradigm ideology and the partisan politics involved. 



I saw the video for 3D printing on youtube. It certainly has a bright future ahead of it lets hope government keeps it's nose out of this.



The "pillars" won't fall, they will just adapt to the changes in society and technology. Dictatorship won't be an option anymore. The state will have to be more transparent and accountable to the people than ever before. Hopefully, if anything the internet will force the elected government to actually listen to people who understand the reality of life now. Millionaires (most government "representatives") don't understand the reality of life. 

I just hope the state never pokes its nose into the internet, it belongs to the people.



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