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Forums - General - Age of the universe?

Slimebeast said:

Why not?

You claim that a few theories are "pretty possible" based on no evidence whatsoever, then rule out the most clever and logical one, a god.

Before we knew, for example, how the earth formed or life evolved I'm sure plenty of people said the most clever and logical explanation was a God. 



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binary solo said:
Jay520 said:
man-bear-pig said:

everything must come from something....



How do you know this?

All observed phenomena follow the principle of cause and effect. Nothing happens but that something preceeding it caused it to happen. If you are aware of anything to refute that basic axiom then please bring it to light.

That's not so cut-and-dry in the world of quantum mechanics. There's, to our current understanding, no cause that says that a given unstable atom must decay right now and not a second ago. There's probabilities distributions, but no actual dice.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

Its more than that. The light that we're seeing right now is 13.7bn years old. So that means it took 13.7bn years to reach us. See what I mean?



man-bear-pig said:

.. So basically, everything must come from something

Like, for example, you omnipotent god?

The problem is that the big bang not only created the universe, it also "unmasked" the laws of physics that govern our universe. It is pretty difficult to describe the cause of the big bang if we don't have "the physics before our physics took over".



man-bear-pig said:

Scientists say that ~13.7bn years ago the Big Bang occurred and blah blah blah, but I've been thinking and this makes no sense to me. There must've been some catalyst to cause the Big Bang and it must've came from somewhere, and so on and so forth. So basically, everything must come from something, so does this mean the universe has an infinite age? This is impossible, yet any other possibilities I can think of are implausible.

I'm mindfucked. Can anyone explain this to me?


Our big bang is the result of 2 "universes" coliding. What happened before that  is unknown.

Big bangs are not the beginning its just  lile meteorites hitting planets  its normal but because we cant really look further back in time some people mark this as beginning.


The big bang theory does not state that there was "nothing" or a proton or whatever that exploded and made our universe. The theory just explains how our universe kept growing after the initial big bang. There is no information on the events prior to the big bang in the big bang theory.



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WereKitten said:
binary solo said:
Jay520 said:
man-bear-pig said:

everything must come from something....



How do you know this?

All observed phenomena follow the principle of cause and effect. Nothing happens but that something preceeding it caused it to happen. If you are aware of anything to refute that basic axiom then please bring it to light.

That's not so cut-and-dry in the world of quantum mechanics. There's, to our current understanding, no cause that says that a given unstable atom must decay right now and not a second ago. There's probabilities distributions, but no actual dice.

That does not preclude there being a cause. The fact that the universe runs on probability distributions for certain events is still part of the chain of causation.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

WereKitten said:
Slimebeast said:
 

God is extremely powerful and exists independent of time and space.

The existence of a material universe with a distinct beginning demands a cause outside of the universe itself. A powerful creator God satisfies this demand (and certainly much better than the ridicilous ad-hoc multiverse theory).

You're typing words here, that don't mean what you think they mean (powerful, indipendent of time and space, material, beginning, cause, outside the universe). And basically mean very little or are not precise enough for them to be useful in a debate about physics. But that's the whole point of religion, isn't it? It doesn't have to make very sense when you get down to the details, it just has to look good from afar and ring nice enough in our ears. It has to please.

I'm all for the arts, I just don't think that a nice impressionist painting of the river tells me more about how it truly is than most crappy photographs of crude schematics of its currents. It's something made up to make us feel on the inside, not to make us know the outside.

Let me cut to the point: you're proposing the god of gaps, that is getting smaller and smaller with our ignorance. But right now and in the foreseeable future we might not know much about the incredibly different and remote conditions near what we call the Big bang.

And yet, silly as that caged god might sound, it satisfies you. That's your call: you are free to see bogeymen in the shadows and fairies drawing rainbows as well.

For most logical people, though, an omnipotent being with volition and feelings and thought and moral that encompasses all conceivable universes and able to know the evolution of all that can come to be at all time is simply an infantile cop out. The laws of physics might sound more complicated to us - or at least to many of us - whereas saying somebody did it sounds simpler. But again, that's infantile thinking: that's relying on words ( person is a single word that implies incredible amounts of complexity ) instead of the underlying concepts.

In reality, where by reality I mean within the accepted bounduaries of logic, God is a more complex and ad-hoc explanation that multiverses, endlessly variating laws of physics, endlessly cycling universes. You're just sweeping the dirty complexity under the god-labeled rug and claiming the room of cosmology is now cleaner. It isn't.

This is not supposed to be about vague words, it's supposed to be about the numbers, precisely defined concepts, fasification. And math and physics taught us that there are concepts out there, from infinitesimal calculus to non euclidian geometries to imaginary numbers that sound weird and far from what we are trained and evolved to define (person), but in the end explain and reflect the world in elegant and wonderous ways. Zeno's paradox? that's just words. Trouble with infinite recession of causes? that's just words.

We're past that, or we should be.

A pretty pathetic post by you actually, with lots of words without much meaning and filled with childish first-grade psychology assumptions.

I'm gonna adress your post in more detail later, because I have to go out for a few of hours now.



JazzB1987 said:

.. There is no information on the events prior to the big bang in the big bang theory.

That is actually disputable. There are theories that if certain events led to the big bang, residual traces of that event should/could be observable in the early states of the universe.



binary solo said:
WereKitten said:
binary solo said:
Jay520 said:
man-bear-pig said:

everything must come from something....



How do you know this?

All observed phenomena follow the principle of cause and effect. Nothing happens but that something preceeding it caused it to happen. If you are aware of anything to refute that basic axiom then please bring it to light.

That's not so cut-and-dry in the world of quantum mechanics. There's, to our current understanding, no cause that says that a given unstable atom must decay right now and not a second ago. There's probabilities distributions, but no actual dice.

That does not preclude there being a cause. The fact that the universe runs on probability distributions for certain events is still part of the chain of causation.

Might be, or might be not. You asked for an example of phenomena happening without a (previous) phenomenon we can call its cause in a classical sense.

There are several interpretations of quantum mechanics and ongoing work to untangle the mess at its root. Some great physicists (such as T'Hooft) are trying to find a deterministic simpler layer under the QM as we know it. Other schools posit that we should accept the logic as QM as we know it through experiments and not try to shoehorn it into our determinsitic, classical thinking.

Anyway, the current orthodox interpretation of QM has a very restricted definition of causality ( that has to do with transmission of information in a world relying on general relativity and is tied with locality ) and does not posit "a cause for every effect" as a basic axiom, whereas for example Newton's classical mechanics implies.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

WereKitten said:
binary solo said:
Jay520 said:
man-bear-pig said:

everything must come from something....



How do you know this?

All observed phenomena follow the principle of cause and effect. Nothing happens but that something preceeding it caused it to happen. If you are aware of anything to refute that basic axiom then please bring it to light.

That's not so cut-and-dry in the world of quantum mechanics. There's, to our current understanding, no cause that says that a given unstable atom must decay right now and not a second ago. There's probabilities distributions, but no actual dice.

Although i'd argue that's more likely to be a problem with current tools and perception then it is actual no reason for it happening.  I'd think it's probable there is something going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, since that's been the case of basically everything else we haven't known the full story about.

Afterall at one time atoms were considered the smallest piece of matter and was made of nothing.

Personally i'm in the pessimist sciece category.  That is, that while science should fully go foward trying to figure out the universe and everything about it.   I believe we will never get there.  I think we may not even have all the needed senses and abstract thinking capabilties to figure out the universe.

Call me an extreme believer on Godel's incompleteness theorm.  (Not that i think that makes a god more likely just based on that merit but while science is our best tool, it's worth noting it's not as perfect as infalliable as people thing, since most science exists to be proven wrong.)