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Forums - Politics - Chicago politicians want to make our minimum wage 10 dollars an hour!

Arcturus said:
spurgeonryan said:
sales2099 said:
Canada has been 10.25 for a couple years now. What is the wage in the US now?

I think this really only applies to teenagers. Anybody with any education with a job probably makes more then minimum.



I have three degrees and years of experience in stuff. I now make minimum wage. Thank Obama. Also I think its 8 something here. Actually I work nights so I make a dollar more.

You can't be serious.

There was an article just recently that said that I belive it was 40% of college graduates are working in a job that does not require a college degree.

Now later in that profession through promotions and/or to get promoted you might need that degree.  They might also not hire unless you have a degree for that reason.  But most college graduates are over qualified for their jobs.

Then you take into the current economy and you have some people wokring minimum wage because there is no jobs in their field.  There are a few people I know that are like 45 years old that are working right now at menards or home depot at basically minimum wage.  They have degrees, but they lost their jobs due to economy and haven't gotten new ones yet.



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badgenome said:
Aielyn said:

It's better that the people who are working make enough money from their work to live on.

And how much money it takes for a wage to be livable it determined by the economy. Whatever moderate impact a small raise might have on the life of someone who makes minimum wage will be offset by the rise in the cost of living that results from the rise of the cost of labor. You can't simply legislate everyone out of wage slavery.

Aielyn said:

The suggestion that a company will be unable to employ as many people if they're forced to pay $10 an hour is just absurd. If companies do lay people off because of the raise in the minimum wage, then the fault lies with those companies - either their business model relies on paying peanuts to workers, or their business is poorly structured to begin with, or they're just plain greedy.

No one suggested that a company will be absolutely unable to employ as many people. Although some are bound to be unable to do so, it doesn't really matter which of the reasons you listed (or didn't list) are at play. It's merely a fact of life that unemployment will go up and it will be even harder for younger, less experienced workers to find jobs than it already is, and crying about greed isn't going to change this simple fact.

Aielyn said:

Also keep in mind that, by raising the minimum wage, you increase the ability of such employees to pay for things that aren't utter necessities, thus boosting the economy further, resulting in greater revenue, which enables companies to employ more workers.

You also destroy earning power by making things cost more, so how much of an economic boost there really is is, at the very least, highly debatable. Especially since most people already make more than minimum wage, so they won't be getting a raise even as you're now driving up the cost of living.

Aielyn said:

The black-and-white attitude of so many people to such complex issues bugs the hell out of me. The world isn't so black-and-white, so linear. There is an optimum minimum wage value - it's some value that will maximise the results for everyone. Set it lower, and companies might be able to hire more workers, but those workers will be worse off, dragging down the economy. Set it higher, and it starts to negatively impact companies' bottom lines even after factoring in economic impacts.

And who decides that $10/hour or whatever is "optimal"? As always, the market decides this stuff way better than politicians, who are always hellbent on trying to fit a round peg into a square hole for political gain and/or to fit their ignorant worldviews.

You seem to think strong economy = higher prices. It doesn't have to work that way.

In a lot of cases, the limiting factor isn't supply, but demand. If more people have more disposable income, it allows them to buy more things, which increases demand for those things, which in many cases simply means more profit due to more sales for the company that makes those things. And if demand increases, companies can either increase supply or increase price. Increasing price will of course price out the very people that were able to afford it anyway, so increasing supply enables them to meet the demand and make the same profit. And to increase supply, they need to hire more people.

As for the idea that the market is a better way to determine this stuff - don't make me laugh. You clearly don't comprehend economics even to a mild degree if you think that the employment market is one that works well in that way. There is always more supply than demand in the employment market - you'll never have zero unemployment. As a result, companies are at the advantage, able to lower pay further and further. Since the difference between paying people just enough to survive and paying people less than enough to survive is zero as far as demand is concerned, and people being paid less need more hours to survive, the result is actually LESS employment.

The market is in no way a good method of controlling this sort of thing. Ever heard of the Prisoner's Dilemma? It applies in economics constantly - the optimal value isn't found, the nash equilibrium is found. And in most cases, unless you apply restrictions, the nash equilibrium is very different from the optimum. In the case of Prisoner's Dilemma, despite the fact that both prisoners cooperating is the optimal result, each prisoner gets a better result by defecting, and the result is one that is less optimal for both.

The government plays the role of the regulator. They provide ways to circumvent these sorts of problems. The minimum wage is one such control - in this case, a minimum wage set around the real optimum will provide the best net result for everybody, for multiple reasons.

Note that Australia has a minimum wage 50% higher than the one being discussed here. Unemployment in America is 7.6%, Australia's is 5.4%. Note that Australia also has much more generous unemployment benefits (which require you to continue looking for a job) that don't expire after a certain amount of time, so it's not because fewer people stay in the job market.



thranx said:
Yes there is, and when the government disrupts that it makes it impossible to achieve. some jobs have a lower requirements to work, are easier to do, and require less education. forcing companies to pay everyone the same means everyone better work the same, or those that dont will loose jobs. raising the minimun wage hurts those who lack education, drive, and experience more than anyone else. As they are priced out of the job market.

It doesn't force companies to pay everyone the same. It forces companies to pay at least a certain amount. And the amount required certainly isn't particularly burdensome.

If people lack education, that's a failing of your system. If people lack drive, it's their own damn problem. Experience is a different matter, of course, but then, minimum wage jobs shouldn't require any particular amount of experience - after all, experience should increase your perceived value.

The government isn't disrupting anything. It's setting restrictions on the "game" - I use that term in the sense of "game theory", which is very applicable to economics. Otherwise, the game ends up greatly favouring a non-optimal result, just as occurs in the Prisoner's Dilemma.



Its not going to work out how they expect.

Companies that pay $7 - $9/hr are going to have to do one of two things to deal with a minimum wage increase:

1) Fire/timesize workers
2) Raise prices

Guess which one the businesses are going to choose. Its not going to have the effect they believe it will. Illinois is in the middle of a death kneel, and this will only hasten it.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Aielyn said:
It's AU$15 here in Australia. And given that the Australian dollar is at or a little above parity with the US dollar...


Australia's minimum wage is $15.96 per hour or $606.40 per week

you cut of 96cents.

 

EDIT: now that our tax has reformed to no tax for first $18000 earned that also helps the minimum wage people.



 

 

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dsgrue3 said:
Illinois isn't exactly a model state...

Don't assume that minimum wage increasing there will produce higher wages across the board either, let alone in other states.

Bad idea. It's already above Federal, why change? Cost of living in Illinois is barely above low.


Cost of living in Illinois is only tha low because of everything out of a 50 mil radius of Chicago. Within that 50 miles is pretty expensive. For example I am living in city limits of Milwaukee on the eastside (nice area) for cheaper than I would be living in the run down ghetto burbs of Joliet.



mrstickball said:
Its not going to work out how they expect.

Companies that pay $7 - $9/hr are going to have to do one of two things to deal with a minimum wage increase:

1) Fire/timesize workers
2) Raise prices

Guess which one the businesses are going to choose. Its not going to have the effect they believe it will. Illinois is in the middle of a death kneel, and this will only hasten it.

The hilarious thing is last 2 companies I work for (little caesars and target) always went over alloted hours. Pinching them that much more to reduce hours will have drastic effects on work. My target had bare minimum of workers on the sales floor (1 during weeknights) that reducing hours wont have any effect because that one person will need to be working no matter what. The trucks needed to get unloaded and stocked no matter what. Little caesars was in worse shape. My store was only suppose to have 150 hours per week but 2 people were suppose to be scheduled at all times which meant at least 170 hours a week were used and 2 people can't handle the diner rush themselves so it was more like 240hours used a week.



Aielyn said:

You seem to think strong economy = higher prices. It doesn't have to work that way.

No, I think that driving up the cost of labor = higher prices. It does have to work that way.



badgenome said:
No, I think that driving up the cost of labor = higher prices. It does have to work that way.

No, it doesn't. Like I said before, economics is a highly complicated field, and the reductionist attitude that people like you apply is just plain wrong. There are a hundred different possible results for increasing the cost of labour. Higher prices *can* apply. There is no reason why it has to.



USD$10? It's the same here in Mexico, more or less... HAHA who am I kidding, it's about USD$0.70 here (: