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Forums - General Discussion - Why Christianity is Fundamentally Flawed

dsgrue3 on 31 December 2012
RenderMonk said:
dsgrue3 said:
None of you have addressed the fallacy of judgement from an omniscient being.

From birth your judgement would be sealed as any decision ever made would already be known to such a being.

"Free will" and omniscience cannot co-exist. Sorry Christians.


It doesn't work quite like that. God's knowing, doesn't affect your choosing.


Your choice is but an illusion if God knows what it is already. Your choice does not affect his knowing. 



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RenderMonk on 31 December 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
RenderMonk said:
It's a shame people take this so lightly. Some of the reply's to the OP are just plain mockery. Here you have someone legitimately laying out their delima, and you have nothing more constructive to add than "ShhhHHHH! Let them have their fun." or "Then you should have won the Scrabble game." If you have nothing constructive to contribute, than be an onlooker. Don't tack on your useless drivel of a comment, just because the topic makes you uncomfortable.

To the OP, I'm really sorry to hear that situation is one you (or a friend) is afflicted with. The truth of the matter is that professing with your mouth, and believing in your heart that Jesus is Lord, is the only way to heaven. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, none shall reach the father (being God) accept through me. We were never told that this life would be easy, that's a common misconception. In fact, he tells us that as our relationship with him grows deeper, the more persecution will befall us. That's in part to do with the spiritual warfare going on around us everyday, and in part because of the sinful world we live in (and the sinful people that live in it).

Take this as an opportunity to witness to your parents, and use the support of your neighbors that are around you to keep you strong. I know it's easy to say something like that, when I'm not in your shoes, but believe me, we all face trials and tribulations, it's how we handle them that produce character and faith.

A good verse for you to learn and carry with you may be from the book of James Chapter 1 verses 2-3 "Consider it pure joy my brothers, when you face trials of many kinds. Because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance."

We are given free will to choose. God is a fair and just and almighty God. Trust that he loves you. You cannot get to heaven by works (being a good person). Read your Bible daily and spend as much time as you can with your neighbors that support you. Pray for wisdom and strength, and God will reveal to you the way to reach your parents. Don't despair, you'd be surprised at how the Lord can work in peoples lives, and just when you least expect it, something miraculous will happen in your life/situations. Bless you, and I'll remember to pray for you.


Before I say anything else: Thank you for this respectful response and for all the kind words.

On topic: I see you believe that everyone need to accept Jesus as their savior. But then let me ask you this: Why force people who are aware of him to do that now? Why not wait until after death, which is the only possible state where you are able to gain true, perfectly unbiased and untampered knowledge about who Jesus was, what he did, and what he wants? Now everyone live in very different conditions which tampers with their knowledge and their free will, which is why I say it is unfair to judge people based on how they lived their lives. I.e., had the same person been born in a different family living in a different country, chances could possibly have been greater for him to enter heaven. If chances really wouldn't change no matter where the person was born or whatever upbringing he had to endure though, that would make it a fair system: The person would be judged for the "true" free parts of his will, and religious practicing would not matter. Being a good person at heart would then be the only way of entering heaven.

For God to make a fair final judgement, all that is taught by outer influences and all actions and opinions that you have shaped based on them would need to be disregarded, as I see it.


Well that's part of why it's called faith. If God came and appeared before each one of us and said, "Here I stand, I am God, Love me!" Then it wouldn't be much of a choice would it. God's design, which I don't pretend to FULLY understand, as no one does, is meant to  allow each person the choice to love and follow him freely through faith that he is God. Every person who knows God, is charged by the Lord, to spread the word to those that don't know him. This is how those that don't know of him are to be reached, and in turn saved. Believe it or not, most of the Muslims know about God, and Jesus, they just choose not to believe it. That's not to say that there are still many many people that don't know God, but the time that we has humanity have had to reach people is more than enough. It's a matter of choosing to spread the word, and reach/save people. Many so-called Christans are lazy, and don't have that close relationship with the Lord that makes them want to share this good news.

I do understand your point about where you born and what situation you were born into. This goes back to what I was saying about how God never says our life as a believer is going to be an easy one. Is it fair, no. Do I presume to know why God's design is the way it is? No. Only God can answer those questions. But regardless of fair or not, if we are presented with his salvation, than that's enough. Are you invloved in a church somewhere? Where maybe you can get some wisdom from a pastor or someone maybe a little bit more educated in the ways of the Lord than say the masses of VGChartz :)


I do really hope that you take this situation and use it for God's glory. Maybe God allowed you to be in this situation for you to learn and grow. One day becoming a pastor yourself. Sharing how difficult it was for you as a child, growing up in your situation, and how God's love and YOUR FAITH helped you overcome the situation, to go on and lead others to Christ. Perspective, right? You may be on the path to somewhere unbelieveable incredible, and just haven't perceived it as that yet. Good Luck friend.



Majora on 31 December 2012

Could piss myself laughing at some of the responses here. Comedy gold!



Player1x3 on 31 December 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Player1x3 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

That doesn't rule out the fact that outer influences have had massive effects on my opinion and the choices that I have made in my life. If outer influences could be disregarded using your free will, then we wouldn't have a middle east with 99% muslims. Their environment and upbringing is the result of that.

That doesnt mean that they have to remain muslim. They are born into a muslim enviorment, but that doesnt seal their fate to remain like that forever. They are able to change, despite their enviorment


So your seriously believe that those 99% have the ability to convert to Christianity but choose not to using their free will, and that God might send them to hell for making that decision?

That would make God cruel. Unless, of course, Result 2 is how God re been ally judges you, and that whichever religion you practise or believe in doesn't matter. 

Yes I do. They choose Islam because they are comfortable with it, and still there are examples where people have converted from Islam to christianity BECAUSE OF THEIR FREE WILL.  And Muslims and Christians believe in the same God, so i dont see why would he send anyone to hell in that case.

And i already told you, result 2 is IMO the correct one, but it doesnt point out the flaw in Christianity



IIIIITHE1IIIII on 31 December 2012
RenderMonk said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Before I say anything else: Thank you for this respectful response and for all the kind words.

On topic: I see you believe that everyone need to accept Jesus as their savior. But then let me ask you this: Why force people who are aware of him to do that now? Why not wait until after death, which is the only possible state where you are able to gain true, perfectly unbiased and untampered knowledge about who Jesus was, what he did, and what he wants? Now everyone live in very different conditions which tampers with their knowledge and their free will, which is why I say it is unfair to judge people based on how they lived their lives. I.e., had the same person been born in a different family living in a different country, chances could possibly have been greater for him to enter heaven. If chances really wouldn't change no matter where the person was born or whatever upbringing he had to endure though, that would make it a fair system: The person would be judged for the "true" free parts of his will, and religious practicing would not matter. Being a good person at heart would then be the only way of entering heaven.

For God to make a fair final judgement, all that is taught by outer influences and all actions and opinions that you have shaped based on them would need to be disregarded, as I see it.


Well that's part of why it's called faith. If God came and appeared before each one of us and said, "Here I stand, I am God, Love me!" Then it wouldn't be much of a choice would it. God's design, which I don't pretend to FULLY understand, as no one does, is meant to  allow each person the choice to love and follow him freely through faith that he is God. Every person who knows God, is charged by the Lord, to spread the word to those that don't know him. This is how those that don't know of him are to be reached, and in turn saved. Believe it or not, most of the Muslims know about God, and Jesus, they just choose not to believe it. That's not to say that there are still many many people that don't know God, but the time that we has humanity have had to reach people is more than enough. It's a matter of choosing to spread the word, and reach/save people. Many so-called Christans are lazy, and don't have that close relationship with the Lord that makes them want to share this good news.

I do understand your point about where you born and what situation you were born into. This goes back to what I was saying about how God never says our life as a believer is going to be an easy one. Is it fair, no. Do I presume to know why God's design is the way it is? No. Only God can answer those questions. But regardless of fair or not, if we are presented with his salvation, than that's enough. Are you invloved in a church somewhere? Where maybe you can get some wisdom from a pastor or someone maybe a little bit more educated in the ways of the Lord than say the masses of VGChartz :)


I do really hope that you take this situation and use it for God's glory. Maybe God allowed you to be in this situation for you to learn and grow. One day becoming a pastor yourself. Sharing how difficult it was for you as a child, growing up in your situation, and how God's love and YOUR FAITH helped you overcome the situation, to go on and lead others to Christ. Perspective, right? You may be on the path to somewhere unbelieveable incredible, and just haven't perceived it as that yet. Good Luck friend.


The bolded is the part that I don't understand. How can the eternal fate for the people who are unaware of God depend on the believers' willingness to spread the word of God? You even admit it yourself that it doesn't seem fair to you. Thus, it all falls back to the "God works in mysterious ways"-saying. And I don't buy that. Why require that we believe in something that doesn't appear to be fair to us? Why punish those who choose not to believe in a system that seems unfair?

The italics is just a rude assumption. Sure, we all have our difficult times throughout our lives, but I'm confident that my childhood was much easier than that of most children. Not to mention those born in a poor environment.

I was happy during my childhood, and I still am.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII on 31 December 2012
Player1x3 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

So your seriously believe that those 99% have the ability to convert to Christianity but choose not to using their free will, and that God might send them to hell for making that decision?

That would make God cruel. Unless, of course, Result 2 is how God really judges you, and that whichever religion you practise or believe in doesn't matter. 

Yes I do. They choose Islam because they are comfortable with it, and still there are examples where people have converted from Islam to christianity BECAUSE OF THEIR FREE WILL.  And Muslims and Christians believe in the same God, so i dont see why would he send anyone to hell in that case.

And i already told you, result 2 is IMO the correct one, but it doesnt point out the flaw in Christianity


It seems like you are forgetting that us being aware of Islamic and Christian teachings are the result of outer influences. If result 2 indeed is how God judges you, then he won't care what God you worship, and converting others will not affect their chances of entering heaven.

The flaw is that the general idea of Christianity is that you should spread the knowledge of God and Jesus in order to save your fellow humans from hell and evil. That makes no sense since their fate would depend on your willingness to act, and not solely on their own free will. Their free will and future choices would change depending on your willingness to spread the Christian message, thus proving that their free will is not free: It partially depends on your actions, and random outer influences.

Those actions and random influences would need to be disregarded for God's final judgement to be fair.



miz1q2w3e on 31 December 2012

A child born into a certain religion will MOST LIKELY end up that way when they grow up. I agree, it's unfair because the family your are born into is determined by chance. It's the same for Christians, Jews, Muslim, other religions, and non-religions. What if you were born into the wrong religion?



DaRev on 31 December 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

One thing that close to all Christians have in common is that they all believe that we have a free will. They say that God created all humans and gave them free will, allowing them to choose how they want to live their lives.

Right off the bat, in the statement above, youu have errored. Not all Christians believe we have fee will. For example, Calvinists (Calvinism) don't believe in free will, and they are a lot of Christians that don't believe in free will. Sorry I didn't read the rest of the OP since right from the begining you errored like most non-Christians do when trying to undertsnad Christianity from their own mind or life experience without actaully relying on any proper Christian source.



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dsgrue3 on 31 December 2012
DaRev said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

One thing that close to all Christians have in common is that they all believe that we have a free will. They say that God created all humans and gave them free will, allowing them to choose how they want to live their lives.

Right off the bat, in the statement above, youu have errored. Not all Christians believe we have fee will. For example, Calvinists (Calvinism) don't believe in free will, and they are a lot of Christians that don't believe in free will. Sorry I didn't read the rest of the OP since right from the begining you errored like most non-Christians do when trying to undertsnad Christianity from their own mind or life experience without actaully relying on any proper Christian source.

lol you don't believe in free will? 



DaRev on 31 December 2012
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

One thing that close to all Christians have in common is that they all believe that we have a free will. They say that God created all humans and gave them free will, allowing them to choose how they want to live their lives.

Right off the bat, in the statement above, youu have errored. Not all Christians believe we have fee will. For example, Calvinists (Calvinism) don't believe in free will, and they are a lot of Christians that don't believe in free will. Sorry I didn't read the rest of the OP since right from the begining you errored like most non-Christians do when trying to undertsnad Christianity from their own mind or life experience without actaully relying on any proper Christian source.

lol you don't believe in free will? 

I believe in free will, but many Christians don't. So, right from the beginning the OP is wrong.



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