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Forums - Politics Discussion - This is why I don't like debating religion

DaRev on 18 December 2012
EdHieron said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
It's a sign of how powerful religion is and how warped peoples minds are in the religion that they feel quoting bible passages is the proof that they talk about that god exists.

And also, whether it's Christianity or Islam, what difference does it make? They are both elaborate myths so really whichever you want to 'debate' is fruitless. The 'enlightened' will tell us God said this, Allah said that. Did he now? How perfectly charming! It's all tosh.

What other form of PROOF other than quoting historical texts (like the Bible) can you provide to provide that something is true or not? For example, prove to me that Alexander the Great ever existed.

I don't think you understand what exactly it is that you are posing. Alexander the Great is an historical figure who apart from leaving behind many buildings has also left archaeologists with a wealth of artifacts as evidence to his existence.

The knowledge of the existence of Alexander the Great is different to the written "proof" of God in that (lack of archaeological evidence aside) Alexander the Great is now presented as an omnipotent being who's word is law over all men. The existence of Alexander the Great does not require you to suspend belief for it to appear perfectly reasonable that he did exist.

Another point you are missing in this debate is that whether God exists or not is really not important. As there is no evidence or any logical reason to believe he exists, why worry about whether he exists or not? Using your logic, there is no proof that unicorns, fairies and other pantheons of Gods and Goddesses do not exist, however the difference there is that most people these days aren't worrying, stressing or fighting over their potential existence. If they exist, that's wonderful but as they are not present or tangible it really isn't important. It is important however that we acknowledge what is real and what does exist.

FYI - I am not suggesting that Jesus didn't exist - I think it entirely reasonable to believe that he did. I just know that if he did exist, he was potentially mentally unstable as he claimed to be the son of an invisible deity. If I suggested to you that I was the son of god and truly believed it, would I be worthy of your time and adoration or would you dismiss me as crazy or mistaken? There is so much evidence to suggest that a god is not only unlikely but entirely unncessary that I don't see how anyone who believes in such a being isn't entirely ignorant to the world around them.

First paragraph, ha what AtheG left behind pales in comparison to what Jesus (God in flesh) left behind, ie so much TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, IDEOLOGY (not just a bunch of rocks) have transformed the known world. You got rocks to prove AtheG lived well, I have teachings that transformed the whole world that proves God through Jesus existed. Oh and Historically, we know where Jesus lived, was born, died, his geneology and where he taught, so History has no problem proving Jesus or AtheG.

Second paragraph, the existance God doesn't require you to suspend anything, but only that you open your mind. For it is only logical to believe that only miraculous events, i.e. God on Earth, could have transformed the world into what we know it today. For all the great men that ever were great in this world, all their exploits pale in comparison to what Jesus did, so much so that you are here stuck in a debate about him. Let's debate AtheG and see if anyone cares.

Third paragraph, its is important because one day, you will die, as set by God, and on that day you will have to answer the question whether you knew God or not - not whether you knew unicorns or faries. Again, Jesus came here to prove Gods existance by performing signs and miracles and teaching, no fairy or unicorn ever did that for you or you would be here debating unicorns not Jesus.

Final paragraph, well joing the club, for people in Jesus' day didn't believve him either, so they killed him for saying he was the son of God (hopefully you're not that extreme). But the difference between you and Jesus would be in your teaching. Meaning can you, or anyone else, that might also claim to be the son God, put forward teaching that will transform the world? If you can I will gladly follow you to   For example, give me your world change teaching on Marriage, if that is too difficult, try teaching us How the best way to treat other People, if you still find any of those a bit challenging, try teaching on Humility.

By the way the bible does say we all can be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, but that I suspect might be a bit too deep for you

 

The problem with that line of reasoning is that today there is significant scholarly debate about just what Jesus himself actually left behind.  There is even abundant evidence that the earliest written works about Jesus didn't even mention key details in Jesus' life including the Resurrection as well as the fact that the Gospels themselves might not be trustworthy as they were written long after the time of Jesus by people that didn't even know him and seem to add bits and pieces from the stories of several earlier gods or gurus to make Jesus appear to be more appealing than he does in earlier works like the original version of the "Gospel of Mark" ( which  wasn't written until several decades after Jesus' death by someone that most scholarls at the most prestigious universities tend to agree wasn't an eyewitness to the life of Jesus) while some books that have been long suppressed like "The Gospel of Thomas" are beginning to appear as if they were written as early as any of the other Gospels yet paint an entirely different picture of Jesus.  And then there's the general lack of any corroborating evidence to support anything in the Gospels from any highly regarded non-Biblical Historian that would have been near Jerusalem duing Jesus' time.

Sources:  "The Restored New Testament:  A New Translation With Commentary, Including The Gnostic Gospels of Thomas, Mary, and Judas" By    Willis Barnstone Ph. D ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Restored-New-Testament-Translation/dp/039306493X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355820375&sr=8-1&keywords=the+restored+new+testament )

                 "The Case Against the Case for Christ:  A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel" by Robert M. Price Ph. D. ( http://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Christ-Testament-Reverend/dp/1578840058/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355820647&sr=1-1&keywords=the+case+against+the+case+for+christ )

                  "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels Ph. D (  http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355820821&sr=1-1&keywords=the+gnostic+gospels+elaine+pagels )

                  "The Historical Jesus:  The Life of a Meditterranean Jewish Peasant" ( http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Mediterranean-Jewish-Peasant/dp/0060616296/ref=la_B000AP7O2C_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355821052&sr=1-2) and "The Power of Parable:  How Fiction By Jesus Became Fiction About Jesus" ( http://www.amazon.com/Power-Parable-Fiction-Jesus-Became/dp/0061875694/ref=la_B000AP7O2C_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355821052&sr=1-1 ) by John Dominic Crossan Ph. D.

                And several books by Bart Ehrman Ph. D The James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill including "Forged:  Writing in the Name of God  Why The Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are" (  http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God--Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/B006QS02F8/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355821387&sr=1-5&keywords=ehrman ) and "Misquoting Jesus:  The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why" ( http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355821511&sr=1-4&keywords=ehrman )

I assume that you know there are equally abudant counter arguments, websites, books, etc. that couner everything you just wrote.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

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Majora on 18 December 2012
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
It's a sign of how powerful religion is and how warped peoples minds are in the religion that they feel quoting bible passages is the proof that they talk about that god exists.

And also, whether it's Christianity or Islam, what difference does it make? They are both elaborate myths so really whichever you want to 'debate' is fruitless. The 'enlightened' will tell us God said this, Allah said that. Did he now? How perfectly charming! It's all tosh.

What other form of PROOF other than quoting historical texts (like the Bible) can you provide to provide that something is true or not? For example, prove to me that Alexander the Great ever existed.

I don't think you understand what exactly it is that you are posing. Alexander the Great is an historical figure who apart from leaving behind many buildings has also left archaeologists with a wealth of artifacts as evidence to his existence.

The knowledge of the existence of Alexander the Great is different to the written "proof" of God in that (lack of archaeological evidence aside) Alexander the Great is now presented as an omnipotent being who's word is law over all men. The existence of Alexander the Great does not require you to suspend belief for it to appear perfectly reasonable that he did exist.

Another point you are missing in this debate is that whether God exists or not is really not important. As there is no evidence or any logical reason to believe he exists, why worry about whether he exists or not? Using your logic, there is no proof that unicorns, fairies and other pantheons of Gods and Goddesses do not exist, however the difference there is that most people these days aren't worrying, stressing or fighting over their potential existence. If they exist, that's wonderful but as they are not present or tangible it really isn't important. It is important however that we acknowledge what is real and what does exist.

FYI - I am not suggesting that Jesus didn't exist - I think it entirely reasonable to believe that he did. I just know that if he did exist, he was potentially mentally unstable as he claimed to be the son of an invisible deity. If I suggested to you that I was the son of god and truly believed it, would I be worthy of your time and adoration or would you dismiss me as crazy or mistaken? There is so much evidence to suggest that a god is not only unlikely but entirely unncessary that I don't see how anyone who believes in such a being isn't entirely ignorant to the world around them.

First paragraph, ha what AtheG left behind pales in comparison to what Jesus (God in flesh) left behind, ie so much TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, IDEOLOGY (not just a bunch of rocks) have transformed the known world. You got rocks to prove AtheG lived well, I have teachings that transformed the whole world that proves God through Jesus existed. Oh and Historically, we know where Jesus lived, was born, died, his geneology and where he taught, so History has no problem proving Jesus or AtheG.

Second paragraph, the existance God doesn't require you to suspend anything, but only that you open your mind. For it is only logical to believe that only miraculous events, i.e. God on Earth, could have transformed the world into what we know it today. For all the great men that ever were great in this world, all their exploits pale in comparison to what Jesus did, so much so that you are here stuck in a debate about him. Let's debate AtheG and see if anyone cares.

Third paragraph, its is important because one day, you will die, as set by God, and on that day you will have to answer the question whether you knew God or not - not whether you knew unicorns or faries. Again, Jesus came here to prove Gods existance by performing signs and miracles and teaching, no fairy or unicorn ever did that for you or you would be here debating unicorns not Jesus.

Final paragraph, well joing the club, for people in Jesus' day didn't believve him either, so they killed him for saying he was the son of God (hopefully you're not that extreme). But the difference between you and Jesus would be in your teaching. Meaning can you, or anyone else, that might also claim to be the son God, put forward teaching that will transform the world? If you can I will gladly follow you to   For example, give me your world change teaching on Marriage, if that is too difficult, try teaching us How the best way to treat other People, if you still find any of those a bit challenging, try teaching on Humility.

By the way the bible does say we all can be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, but that I suspect might be a bit too deep for you

 


My dear, the bolded - after that very pitiful, lenghty reply, I can see that either you are very dense or so warped in your strange belief that no words can describe the lunacy of all that you said. A bit too deep? One does not require religious belief to think things deeply.

Again, you are only proving what the OP describes when you genuinely believe that what you say is a satisfactory answer. It is an epidemic of the Christian mind to think that (once again) a book of philosophy is your proof for the existence of your god. You, sir, are ignorant.

But, as they say, ignorance is bliss. And indeed, you seem entirely blissful.

Typical. Dude, no need to resort to name calling. I wonder if the Mods will feel about your name calling? Anyways,

2 Corinthians 6:18

"I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

It is ignorance though. Whether anybody likes it or not, that's what it is. Ignorance. To deny the facts that are being presented to you everyday and even attempt to present the ridiculous big book of nonsense as fact of anything is preposterous.

And name calling? I have not been rude. I am using the term in context - belief in a fairytale of which there is no evidence whilst ignoring fact and reason = ignorance.



DaRev on 18 December 2012
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
It's a sign of how powerful religion is and how warped peoples minds are in the religion that they feel quoting bible passages is the proof that they talk about that god exists.

And also, whether it's Christianity or Islam, what difference does it make? They are both elaborate myths so really whichever you want to 'debate' is fruitless. The 'enlightened' will tell us God said this, Allah said that. Did he now? How perfectly charming! It's all tosh.

What other form of PROOF other than quoting historical texts (like the Bible) can you provide to provide that something is true or not? For example, prove to me that Alexander the Great ever existed.

I don't think you understand what exactly it is that you are posing. Alexander the Great is an historical figure who apart from leaving behind many buildings has also left archaeologists with a wealth of artifacts as evidence to his existence.

The knowledge of the existence of Alexander the Great is different to the written "proof" of God in that (lack of archaeological evidence aside) Alexander the Great is now presented as an omnipotent being who's word is law over all men. The existence of Alexander the Great does not require you to suspend belief for it to appear perfectly reasonable that he did exist.

Another point you are missing in this debate is that whether God exists or not is really not important. As there is no evidence or any logical reason to believe he exists, why worry about whether he exists or not? Using your logic, there is no proof that unicorns, fairies and other pantheons of Gods and Goddesses do not exist, however the difference there is that most people these days aren't worrying, stressing or fighting over their potential existence. If they exist, that's wonderful but as they are not present or tangible it really isn't important. It is important however that we acknowledge what is real and what does exist.

FYI - I am not suggesting that Jesus didn't exist - I think it entirely reasonable to believe that he did. I just know that if he did exist, he was potentially mentally unstable as he claimed to be the son of an invisible deity. If I suggested to you that I was the son of god and truly believed it, would I be worthy of your time and adoration or would you dismiss me as crazy or mistaken? There is so much evidence to suggest that a god is not only unlikely but entirely unncessary that I don't see how anyone who believes in such a being isn't entirely ignorant to the world around them.

First paragraph, ha what AtheG left behind pales in comparison to what Jesus (God in flesh) left behind, ie so much TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, IDEOLOGY (not just a bunch of rocks) have transformed the known world. You got rocks to prove AtheG lived well, I have teachings that transformed the whole world that proves God through Jesus existed. Oh and Historically, we know where Jesus lived, was born, died, his geneology and where he taught, so History has no problem proving Jesus or AtheG.

Second paragraph, the existance God doesn't require you to suspend anything, but only that you open your mind. For it is only logical to believe that only miraculous events, i.e. God on Earth, could have transformed the world into what we know it today. For all the great men that ever were great in this world, all their exploits pale in comparison to what Jesus did, so much so that you are here stuck in a debate about him. Let's debate AtheG and see if anyone cares.

Third paragraph, its is important because one day, you will die, as set by God, and on that day you will have to answer the question whether you knew God or not - not whether you knew unicorns or faries. Again, Jesus came here to prove Gods existance by performing signs and miracles and teaching, no fairy or unicorn ever did that for you or you would be here debating unicorns not Jesus.

Final paragraph, well joing the club, for people in Jesus' day didn't believve him either, so they killed him for saying he was the son of God (hopefully you're not that extreme). But the difference between you and Jesus would be in your teaching. Meaning can you, or anyone else, that might also claim to be the son God, put forward teaching that will transform the world? If you can I will gladly follow you to   For example, give me your world change teaching on Marriage, if that is too difficult, try teaching us How the best way to treat other People, if you still find any of those a bit challenging, try teaching on Humility.

By the way the bible does say we all can be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, but that I suspect might be a bit too deep for you

 


My dear, the bolded - after that very pitiful, lenghty reply, I can see that either you are very dense or so warped in your strange belief that no words can describe the lunacy of all that you said. A bit too deep? One does not require religious belief to think things deeply.

Again, you are only proving what the OP describes when you genuinely believe that what you say is a satisfactory answer. It is an epidemic of the Christian mind to think that (once again) a book of philosophy is your proof for the existence of your god. You, sir, are ignorant.

But, as they say, ignorance is bliss. And indeed, you seem entirely blissful.

Typical. Dude, no need to resort to name calling. I wonder if the Mods will feel about your name calling? Anyways,

2 Corinthians 6:18

"I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

It is ignorance though. Whether anybody likes it or not, that's what it is. Ignorance. To deny the facts that are being presented to you everyday and even attempt to present the ridiculous big book of nonsense as fact of anything is preposterous.

And name calling? I have not been rude. I am using the term in context - belief in a fairytale of which there is no evidence whilst ignoring fact and reason = ignorance.

Whatever man, I aint mad at yah.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

Majora on 18 December 2012
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
It's a sign of how powerful religion is and how warped peoples minds are in the religion that they feel quoting bible passages is the proof that they talk about that god exists.

And also, whether it's Christianity or Islam, what difference does it make? They are both elaborate myths so really whichever you want to 'debate' is fruitless. The 'enlightened' will tell us God said this, Allah said that. Did he now? How perfectly charming! It's all tosh.

What other form of PROOF other than quoting historical texts (like the Bible) can you provide to provide that something is true or not? For example, prove to me that Alexander the Great ever existed.

I don't think you understand what exactly it is that you are posing. Alexander the Great is an historical figure who apart from leaving behind many buildings has also left archaeologists with a wealth of artifacts as evidence to his existence.

The knowledge of the existence of Alexander the Great is different to the written "proof" of God in that (lack of archaeological evidence aside) Alexander the Great is now presented as an omnipotent being who's word is law over all men. The existence of Alexander the Great does not require you to suspend belief for it to appear perfectly reasonable that he did exist.

Another point you are missing in this debate is that whether God exists or not is really not important. As there is no evidence or any logical reason to believe he exists, why worry about whether he exists or not? Using your logic, there is no proof that unicorns, fairies and other pantheons of Gods and Goddesses do not exist, however the difference there is that most people these days aren't worrying, stressing or fighting over their potential existence. If they exist, that's wonderful but as they are not present or tangible it really isn't important. It is important however that we acknowledge what is real and what does exist.

FYI - I am not suggesting that Jesus didn't exist - I think it entirely reasonable to believe that he did. I just know that if he did exist, he was potentially mentally unstable as he claimed to be the son of an invisible deity. If I suggested to you that I was the son of god and truly believed it, would I be worthy of your time and adoration or would you dismiss me as crazy or mistaken? There is so much evidence to suggest that a god is not only unlikely but entirely unncessary that I don't see how anyone who believes in such a being isn't entirely ignorant to the world around them.

First paragraph, ha what AtheG left behind pales in comparison to what Jesus (God in flesh) left behind, ie so much TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, IDEOLOGY (not just a bunch of rocks) have transformed the known world. You got rocks to prove AtheG lived well, I have teachings that transformed the whole world that proves God through Jesus existed. Oh and Historically, we know where Jesus lived, was born, died, his geneology and where he taught, so History has no problem proving Jesus or AtheG.

Second paragraph, the existance God doesn't require you to suspend anything, but only that you open your mind. For it is only logical to believe that only miraculous events, i.e. God on Earth, could have transformed the world into what we know it today. For all the great men that ever were great in this world, all their exploits pale in comparison to what Jesus did, so much so that you are here stuck in a debate about him. Let's debate AtheG and see if anyone cares.

Third paragraph, its is important because one day, you will die, as set by God, and on that day you will have to answer the question whether you knew God or not - not whether you knew unicorns or faries. Again, Jesus came here to prove Gods existance by performing signs and miracles and teaching, no fairy or unicorn ever did that for you or you would be here debating unicorns not Jesus.

Final paragraph, well joing the club, for people in Jesus' day didn't believve him either, so they killed him for saying he was the son of God (hopefully you're not that extreme). But the difference between you and Jesus would be in your teaching. Meaning can you, or anyone else, that might also claim to be the son God, put forward teaching that will transform the world? If you can I will gladly follow you to   For example, give me your world change teaching on Marriage, if that is too difficult, try teaching us How the best way to treat other People, if you still find any of those a bit challenging, try teaching on Humility.

By the way the bible does say we all can be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, but that I suspect might be a bit too deep for you

 


My dear, the bolded - after that very pitiful, lenghty reply, I can see that either you are very dense or so warped in your strange belief that no words can describe the lunacy of all that you said. A bit too deep? One does not require religious belief to think things deeply.

Again, you are only proving what the OP describes when you genuinely believe that what you say is a satisfactory answer. It is an epidemic of the Christian mind to think that (once again) a book of philosophy is your proof for the existence of your god. You, sir, are ignorant.

But, as they say, ignorance is bliss. And indeed, you seem entirely blissful.

Typical. Dude, no need to resort to name calling. I wonder if the Mods will feel about your name calling? Anyways,

2 Corinthians 6:18

"I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

It is ignorance though. Whether anybody likes it or not, that's what it is. Ignorance. To deny the facts that are being presented to you everyday and even attempt to present the ridiculous big book of nonsense as fact of anything is preposterous.

And name calling? I have not been rude. I am using the term in context - belief in a fairytale of which there is no evidence whilst ignoring fact and reason = ignorance.

Whatever man, I aint mad at yah.

What I do stand to learn from you is humility. I don't wanna come across like a right twat. I hope (religion aside) we can be friends.



EdHieron on 18 December 2012
DaRev said:
EdHieron said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
DaRev said:
Majora said:
It's a sign of how powerful religion is and how warped peoples minds are in the religion that they feel quoting bible passages is the proof that they talk about that god exists.

And also, whether it's Christianity or Islam, what difference does it make? They are both elaborate myths so really whichever you want to 'debate' is fruitless. The 'enlightened' will tell us God said this, Allah said that. Did he now? How perfectly charming! It's all tosh.

What other form of PROOF other than quoting historical texts (like the Bible) can you provide to provide that something is true or not? For example, prove to me that Alexander the Great ever existed.

I don't think you understand what exactly it is that you are posing. Alexander the Great is an historical figure who apart from leaving behind many buildings has also left archaeologists with a wealth of artifacts as evidence to his existence.

The knowledge of the existence of Alexander the Great is different to the written "proof" of God in that (lack of archaeological evidence aside) Alexander the Great is now presented as an omnipotent being who's word is law over all men. The existence of Alexander the Great does not require you to suspend belief for it to appear perfectly reasonable that he did exist.

Another point you are missing in this debate is that whether God exists or not is really not important. As there is no evidence or any logical reason to believe he exists, why worry about whether he exists or not? Using your logic, there is no proof that unicorns, fairies and other pantheons of Gods and Goddesses do not exist, however the difference there is that most people these days aren't worrying, stressing or fighting over their potential existence. If they exist, that's wonderful but as they are not present or tangible it really isn't important. It is important however that we acknowledge what is real and what does exist.

FYI - I am not suggesting that Jesus didn't exist - I think it entirely reasonable to believe that he did. I just know that if he did exist, he was potentially mentally unstable as he claimed to be the son of an invisible deity. If I suggested to you that I was the son of god and truly believed it, would I be worthy of your time and adoration or would you dismiss me as crazy or mistaken? There is so much evidence to suggest that a god is not only unlikely but entirely unncessary that I don't see how anyone who believes in such a being isn't entirely ignorant to the world around them.

First paragraph, ha what AtheG left behind pales in comparison to what Jesus (God in flesh) left behind, ie so much TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, IDEOLOGY (not just a bunch of rocks) have transformed the known world. You got rocks to prove AtheG lived well, I have teachings that transformed the whole world that proves God through Jesus existed. Oh and Historically, we know where Jesus lived, was born, died, his geneology and where he taught, so History has no problem proving Jesus or AtheG.

Second paragraph, the existance God doesn't require you to suspend anything, but only that you open your mind. For it is only logical to believe that only miraculous events, i.e. God on Earth, could have transformed the world into what we know it today. For all the great men that ever were great in this world, all their exploits pale in comparison to what Jesus did, so much so that you are here stuck in a debate about him. Let's debate AtheG and see if anyone cares.

Third paragraph, its is important because one day, you will die, as set by God, and on that day you will have to answer the question whether you knew God or not - not whether you knew unicorns or faries. Again, Jesus came here to prove Gods existance by performing signs and miracles and teaching, no fairy or unicorn ever did that for you or you would be here debating unicorns not Jesus.

Final paragraph, well joing the club, for people in Jesus' day didn't believve him either, so they killed him for saying he was the son of God (hopefully you're not that extreme). But the difference between you and Jesus would be in your teaching. Meaning can you, or anyone else, that might also claim to be the son God, put forward teaching that will transform the world? If you can I will gladly follow you to   For example, give me your world change teaching on Marriage, if that is too difficult, try teaching us How the best way to treat other People, if you still find any of those a bit challenging, try teaching on Humility.

By the way the bible does say we all can be sons of God, in the same way Jesus is, but that I suspect might be a bit too deep for you

 

The problem with that line of reasoning is that today there is significant scholarly debate about just what Jesus himself actually left behind.  There is even abundant evidence that the earliest written works about Jesus didn't even mention key details in Jesus' life including the Resurrection as well as the fact that the Gospels themselves might not be trustworthy as they were written long after the time of Jesus by people that didn't even know him and seem to add bits and pieces from the stories of several earlier gods or gurus to make Jesus appear to be more appealing than he does in earlier works like the original version of the "Gospel of Mark" ( which  wasn't written until several decades after Jesus' death by someone that most scholarls at the most prestigious universities tend to agree wasn't an eyewitness to the life of Jesus) while some books that have been long suppressed like "The Gospel of Thomas" are beginning to appear as if they were written as early as any of the other Gospels yet paint an entirely different picture of Jesus.  And then there's the general lack of any corroborating evidence to support anything in the Gospels from any highly regarded non-Biblical Historian that would have been near Jerusalem duing Jesus' time.

Sources:  "The Restored New Testament:  A New Translation With Commentary, Including The Gnostic Gospels of Thomas, Mary, and Judas" By    Willis Barnstone Ph. D ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Restored-New-Testament-Translation/dp/039306493X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355820375&sr=8-1&keywords=the+restored+new+testament )

                 "The Case Against the Case for Christ:  A New Testament Scholar Refutes the Reverend Lee Strobel" by Robert M. Price Ph. D. ( http://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Christ-Testament-Reverend/dp/1578840058/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355820647&sr=1-1&keywords=the+case+against+the+case+for+christ )

                  "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels Ph. D (  http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Gospels-Elaine-Pagels/dp/0679724532/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355820821&sr=1-1&keywords=the+gnostic+gospels+elaine+pagels )

                  "The Historical Jesus:  The Life of a Meditterranean Jewish Peasant" ( http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Mediterranean-Jewish-Peasant/dp/0060616296/ref=la_B000AP7O2C_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355821052&sr=1-2) and "The Power of Parable:  How Fiction By Jesus Became Fiction About Jesus" ( http://www.amazon.com/Power-Parable-Fiction-Jesus-Became/dp/0061875694/ref=la_B000AP7O2C_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355821052&sr=1-1 ) by John Dominic Crossan Ph. D.

                And several books by Bart Ehrman Ph. D The James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill including "Forged:  Writing in the Name of God  Why The Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are" (  http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writing-God--Why-Bibles-Authors/dp/B006QS02F8/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355821387&sr=1-5&keywords=ehrman ) and "Misquoting Jesus:  The Story Behind Who Changed The Bible and Why" ( http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1355821511&sr=1-4&keywords=ehrman )

I assume that you know there are equally abudant counter arguments, websites, books, etc. that couner everything you just wrote.

And who produces them?  Christian Apologists teaching at places like Liberty College at best.  I'll go with the opinions of the most reputable authorities that have demonstrated that they  are actually qualified to teach at the world's most prestigious universities as have the scholars listed above Thank You very much.



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happydolphin on 18 December 2012

@Majora, EdHieron and Darev. I love the bromance guys, but please cut the quote trees. It makes the thread unreadable.



Majora on 18 December 2012

@happydolphin sorry! haha got carried away!



happydolphin on 18 December 2012

No problem :)



dsgrue3 on 18 December 2012
happydolphin said:
dsgrue3 said:

Reported for what, exactly? It isn't as if I were cursing at you in a derogatory way merely using it to display my frustration with your question.

The animal kingdom doesn't need to fathom the atom in order for its existence to be observed. Everything we observe is evidence for the atom. It makes up everything, the fundamental building block. There can be observation without knowledge. The Sun was certainly observed before we knew it was a star. Come on...you're grasping at straws here.

And as can be argued about God. Everything he created is evidence for him. The complexity, the immensity.

When we dive into that level of logic, the door is open, whether in a naturalistic mindset or in a metaphysical one.

But to say that something only exists if there is evidence for it, then there are many places on earth that the eye has not seen. By that logic these places simply do not exist.

Again, you seem to think observation implies sight. It doesn't. We can't see gravity, but we know it to exist. We can't see certain gases because they are not visible. 

Observation implies evidence, it certainly isn't confined to merely sight.

Well, we know the atom to exist and it does in fact encompass everything. This has been proven beyond any doubt as we have verified its existence through calculation and scientific study. The same cannot be said for your argument of God.

It's an untestable hypothesis and thus is not valid. This is why non-existence is impossible to prove. So asking a non-theist to do so is blatantly ignorant. 



happydolphin on 18 December 2012
dsgrue3 said:

Again, you seem to think observation implies sight. It doesn't. We can't see gravity, but we know it to exist. We can't see certain gases because they are not visible. 

Observation implies evidence, it certainly isn't confined to merely sight.

Well, we know the atom to exist and it does in fact encompass everything. This has been proven beyond any doubt as we have verified its existence through calculation and scientific study. The same cannot be said for your argument of God.

It's an untestable hypothesis and thus is not valid. This is why non-existence is impossible to prove. So asking a non-theist to do so is blatantly ignorant. 

I am not (yet) looking to validate the existence of God. At this point of the dialogue, I just want to demonstrate that the lack of observation does not disprove existence. For instance, prior to the existence of sentient, observing beings, everything that needed to exist to generate living beings was existent. The lack of observation didn't stop sentient creatures from coming into being.

(Note: This logic does not work for a creation deist since in general a creative deity is all-knowing. However in such a case the belief that observation alone proves existence wouldn't really be needed.)