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Forums - Politics Discussion - What Occupy movement understood and most don't.

Kasz216 said:

Also, as for Global Warming... i'd actually like to see someone's solution.

It's slightly off-topic, but I thought I'd respond to this, before commenting on the main theme of the thread.

My solution to Global Warming is funding scientific research of various sorts. The sort of research that needs to be done isn't economically more efficient, so it's not going to be done by businesses. It needs to be funded by governments. And it needs massively larger funding than what is currently available. Oh, and it needs to not be subject to patents - that is, discoveries made need to be public domain, so that the entire world can benefit.

Some of the research will be into technologies (or technological improvements to reduce, for instance, power consumption), while others will be into more "natural" questions, like the effects of planting trees, etc - with the benefit in this case potentially being things like "optimal placement of trees to maximise stabilisation of the climate.

The funny thing is, such funding can be highly productive towards stimulation of the economy. Scientific research requires technology - great for the companies that produce such technology. Scientific research requires engineers, technicians, educators, administrators, etc. They're going to spend their wages on buying things. Etc, etc, etc. You get my point, I think.

There is value in trying to bring down industry's emissions through other methods. But it would work best if designed in such a way as to reward those who are actively reducing their emissions, rather than just punishing the heavier emitters more. A simplistic (in terms of incomplete and lacking nuance - a more detailed solution is necessary) method would be to, for instance, set a baseline for a company in terms of the industry they're in, and deviation from the baseline results in money from those emitting more going to those who emit less, relative to production.

For instance, suppose we're talking about coal mining (not coal burning) - determine the amount of coal being mined per year, and the total emissions by the coal mining industry. Work out the ratio of emissions to coal. Those companies for which their ratio is below the industry-wide ratio would be given money (call this a negative tax), while those above it would be taxed. The net tax on the industry would be zero, but each and every company would be given a financial impetus to reduce their emissions relative to amount of coal mined, in order to increase their after-tax profits. As the ones at with the worst emissions bring down their emissions, the industry-wide ratio lowers naturally, maintaining the revenue-neutral nature of the approach, and continuing to drive innovation within companies to reduce their emissions even more.

 

Anyway, back to the actual topic. I think the unfortunate suggestion by Hedges that it's a conspiracy by those in power to keep the system the way it is, fundamentally, is the main letdown of the argument.

There is nothing about the situation that requires a conspiracy. I don't recall who it's attributed to, but there's a classic saying along the lines of "never assume malice where stupidity can adequately explain behaviour". I don't think Dodd or Franks, for instance, thought that their solution was going to do the opposite of what was intended. I don't think that Republicans are actually trying to destroy the government. I think that they're all just too stupid to realise what they're doing. Unfortunately, this is what happens when government is run by the popular, rather than by the competent. Rhetoric takes priority over results. Pragmatism gets lost in the shuffle. Both sides of politics convince themselves that going over the "Fiscal Cliff" will be beneficial to their side, and that once the other side "loses", they'll be able to implement whatever they want to "fix" the country. They're both wrong, of course.

When they implement measures that curb freedoms, or that try to reduce dissent rather than the cause of dissent, it's not because they're really trying to screw you over, it's because they honestly don't see the problem. When Republicans try to suppress voting rights to those who are more likely to vote Democratic, it's because they honestly believe that they'll do a better job for those people in the long run, but those people are too stupid to realise it (ironically enough). When Democrats try to impose burdensome and unnecessary regulations on businesses, it's not because they hate business, it's because they honestly believe that those regulations will be better for the businesses in the long run.

Mind you, over there in America, there are definitely some forms of conspiracy going on. Democrats and Republicans definitely work together to keep third parties from gaining any traction. Neither side is willing to implement any improvement to how government runs, at the risk that it will play against them if they should end up in opposition... or, when in opposition, they will vote against changes that will make the government look good, because it will be harder to get back into government. This is, sadly, a side-effect of the system of government based on party politics - as evident in many commonwealth countries (who use the Westminster System), in America, and in many other countries.

The biggest failing of the Occupy movement is a lack of true direction. There's no real alternatives being proposed, and no effort to truly engage politically. That's why it faded once the bulk of the protests ended. What they're doing since then is nice, such as the purchase and forgiving of debts, but it's not going to get anywhere meaningful. And therein lies the problem.



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Kasz216 said:
If i'm reading your post right... your arguement is that the republican party is socially extreme because most voters are Christian.

The problem isn't that they're Christian, but that they wish to impose their religion on everyone else, that they would be happy to ban other religions if they could, that they have no problem with the laws in some states (and would be happy to introduce them into other states) that heavily discriminate against atheists and other nonbelievers, and that they view homosexuality, islam, and women's rights as bigger problems in the country than poverty.



EdHieron said:

The Republican Party certainly is socially extreme.  Seventy Percent of those voters that put in the 2010 Crop of Senators thoroughly believe in a totally discredited iron age book that advocates keeping those that don't wholeheartedly believe in an outmoded patriarchical social structure as second class citizens or worse.

Don't be so fucking silly. Believing in the Bible =/= forcing Biblical beliefs on others.



EdHieron said:
Kasz216 said:

If i'm reading your post right... your arguement is that the republican party is socially extreme because most voters are Christian.

Most Republican voters are Fundamantalist Christians and are firm believers in the notion that women should be second class citizens and that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry simply because it goes against the will of an imaginary god.  All of the 2010 Senators were essentially put in office because Obama's African American and Bush won the 2004 Presidential election due to extremists being against gay marriage.


Can you cite some federal laws on the books that the Republicans have passed that have made women 2nd class citizens?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Obama nor the Democratic party has legalized gay marriage. Furthermore, in his 1st term, Obama was against gay marriage.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Aielyn said:
Kasz216 said:
If i'm reading your post right... your arguement is that the republican party is socially extreme because most voters are Christian.

The problem isn't that they're Christian, but that they wish to impose their religion on everyone else, that they would be happy to ban other religions if they could, that they have no problem with the laws in some states (and would be happy to introduce them into other states) that heavily discriminate against atheists and other nonbelievers, and that they view homosexuality, islam, and women's rights as bigger problems in the country than poverty.

I think that's a vast over exageration of the republicans voting base.

Furthermore, setting that aside, even if that was true... their views aren't socially extreme.

Assuming he meant 70% of Republican voters, we're talking what... about a third of the population?



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mrstickball said:
EdHieron said:
Kasz216 said:

If i'm reading your post right... your arguement is that the republican party is socially extreme because most voters are Christian.

Most Republican voters are Fundamantalist Christians and are firm believers in the notion that women should be second class citizens and that gays shouldn't be allowed to marry simply because it goes against the will of an imaginary god.  All of the 2010 Senators were essentially put in office because Obama's African American and Bush won the 2004 Presidential election due to extremists being against gay marriage.


Can you cite some federal laws on the books that the Republicans have passed that have made women 2nd class citizens?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Obama nor the Democratic party has legalized gay marriage. Furthermore, in his 1st term, Obama was against gay marriage.

Additionally it's worth noting that the group that led to DADT being removed was actually.... Republican.



mrstickball said:

Can you cite some federal laws on the books that the Republicans have passed that have made women 2nd class citizens?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Obama nor the Democratic party has legalized gay marriage. Furthermore, in his 1st term, Obama was against gay marriage.

No, but I heard that Mitt Romney was going to singlehandedly outlaw abortion! He was governor of an extreme right-wing state like Massachusetts, so it must be true!

Obama was only throwing gays under the bus for political expediency! He was lying about his opposition to gay marriage, which makes it okay!



badgenome said:
EdHieron said:

The Republican Party certainly is socially extreme.  Seventy Percent of those voters that put in the 2010 Crop of Senators thoroughly believe in a totally discredited iron age book that advocates keeping those that don't wholeheartedly believe in an outmoded patriarchical social structure as second class citizens or worse.

Don't be so fucking silly. Believing in the Bible =/= forcing Biblical beliefs on others.


For Conservative Republicans that want to keep gays from marrying and that think women should have to have babies that were the product of rape or incest just because they believe some imaginary iron age deity forbids gay marriage or abortion it does.  70% of American Christians believe those things and they all tend to belong to the GOP.



EdHieron said:

derp derp derp

Most Republicans don't want to ban abortion in the case of rape and incest, actually. You are wrong about everything. Goodbye.



badgenome said:
EdHieron said:

derp derp derp

Most Republicans don't want to ban abortion in the case of rape and incest, actually. You are wrong about everything. Goodbye.


Actually I'm right about everything.  Banning gay marriage and overthrowing Roe Versus Wade were part of the Gop's Party Platform.  If Romney had had his way, you would have seen Sesame Street replaced with cartoons about the lives of Bring'em Young and Joseph Smith that white washed out all the bits that don't conform to Momonism's "Faithful History." and Republicans calls for "Reforming Education" amount to little more than removing the teaching of Evolution from schools and replacing it with school prayer and the teaching of Creationism.