By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - 2012 Election Center: The Main Event - Obama Wins

 

Of the two main candidates for president, who will win?

Barack Obama 245 75.85%
 
Mitt Romney 73 22.60%
 
Total:318
Kasz216 said:
GameOver22 said:
Kasz216 said:
noname2200 said:

2. Independents. State polls showed Romney winning big among independents. Historically, any candidate polling that well among independents wins. But as it turned out, many of those independents were former Republicans who now self-identify as independents. The state polls weren't oversampling Democrats and undersampling Republicans - there just weren't as many Republicans this time because they were calling themselves independents.

If so that's one place the polls were wrong.  They all tended to say Republican self identification was up.

Exit Polls (rep 2008-32%; rep 2012-32%) (ind 2008-34%; ind 2009-34%) (dem 2008-39%; dem 2012-38%)-this is national level

Yeah, I'm actually not seeing much to support the article's claim. If you look at the state exit polls, the numbers seem to be pretty consistent between 2008 and 2012 as well. I'm just not seeing this movement from the republican party to the independent category. There actually seems to be a pretty big swing for how the independents voted as well (+8 Obama in 2008; -5 Obama in 2012). My guess, there are more indendents that lean republican this time around, but they didn't come from the republican party....this would match up with Obama's smaller popular vote victory as well.

Edit: Main point: Obama won because there are more democratic identifiers...not because of a movement from the republican to the independent category.


Even that though is remotely shocking though.   The pollsters models are either or for some reason self identified Republicans didn't go to the polls.

Example

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/archive/mood_of_america_archive/partisan_trends/summary_of_party_affiliation

 

Which is strange... all I can imagine is that it has to do with the demographic changes in the electoral college.  It used to be that Democrats were always disadvantaged by it because they got less credit for their densley packed liberal states... however things have swung in their favor as can be seen by the population/electoral swing.

For said polls to be true, and pretty much every self identification poll had this, you'd have to assume this occured in "safe" states.  Either Republican or Democrat.

I'm personally leaning towards Rasmussen's numbers being off. If you look at comparable numbers for Gallup and ANES, you see there are much more independents than Rasmussen generally shows. I don't know their question wording, but something seems off. Generally speaking, the democrats have a party ID advantage, even in years where Republicans do very well, like 2010. As to why Rasmussen seems skewed so heavily republican in recent years (2010-2012), I don't know. As I said, I think something might be off with their question wording, such that they might induce independents to choose a side. Even looking at their data from 2008....it seems they overestimated democrats as well....at least compared to others.

Gallup

ANES

Here's Pew with a nice graph (only 1990-2012 are their numbers)

Found this as well: It is on dailykos but Abramowitz is quite a big name in the political science discipline. And this-in graph form! They don't include Gallup and Rasmussen for some reason, but you can see the issue Abramowitz is talking about.



Around the Network
gergroy said:


Where di you hear we were one of the top states?  We generally perform middle of the pack when it comes to education and the only reason we do that well is because we have a bit of a cultural advantage.  Utah generally is among the bottom three states on spending per student, but the mormon church is headquarted here and they put a huge emphasis on educatio which is probably the main reason we perform as well as we do.

here are some things the state has tried to do over the last couple of years here in utah.

1. Cut sex education for students comepletely from schools, Instead of teaching the students sex ed, they wanted to have night classes to teach parents sex ed. (If they didnt know sex ed how did they become parents?). Thankfully that one got vetoed by the governor.

2. They wanted to comepletely cut out the 12th grade to save money.  The reason? Because some students dont take their 12th grade year seriously.

3. The schools had been fighting for money for new textbooks for years, but the legislature waited until the schools had to cut funding to some programsto buy textbboks before they ok'd the money.  However, it was stipulated to only be used on textbooks, and since the schools had just bought textbooks, it all got sent back.  A dirty political move that let appear to pay for new textbooks, but in reality they didnt.  

Our state government does crap like that all the time.  Just stupid stuff.  Federal involvement is very minimal.  They just have some minor guidelines for curriculum and special education so kids can kind of learn the same things all over the country.  If the federal government didnt have them, the states would have them anyway, so i dont see any reason to send the money back to the states.  If anything, the federal government is more hands off with it than the state government would be.

That's ridiculous. Student's not taking the 12th grade seriously? If true, what do they think would happen if they cut it? Student's just wouldn't take 11th grade seriously. Truthfully, the issue is that, come 12th grade, students have more important things on their mind, like applying for college and looking for a job. The same thing is true come senior year in college, except replace college with grad school. As far as textbooks, I kind of always wonder how public schools get by....especially when trying to keep up with new editions....although in some disciplines, there isn't really a need for new editions.



I would like to say that there is never a good time, place, or excuse to rub someones nose in a defeat. That however wouldn't exactly be true would it. Commentators on the Republican party have a valid point when they say that the Conservatives are living within a self generated bubble of willful ignorance. They are literally refusing to accept the reality in which they live. If there is anyone that is truly asking for it, or is in desperate need of it then the modern Republican party would fit that bill.

Granted the vicious commentary has a lot to do with revenge and self validation, but that doesn't mean the brutal nature of the commentary isn't actually constructive. There isn't actually a rule that says by being a asshole, you can't accomplish something positive in the process. Believe it or not the Republican party needs a good amount of tender loving corporal punishment. It isn't any kind of kindness if you let them slip back into self delusional thought, and allow them to rebuild their bubble. Sure it makes them happy, but if you let them stick their head in the sand chances are they will drown when the oceans rise.

Beyond that the media is over compensating for a Republican bias, and a double standard that has been in place for a very long time. Look it is true the media is harder on the Republican party then they are on the Democratic party, but at the same time they hold the latter to much higher standards. Which means that the Republican party gets to slide on a lot of shit. Even then the media can't ignore everything, and is just about forced to report more then they probably would like. Yes the media has been practicing affirmative action when it comes to the Republican party.

What some of you may view as a mean spirited feeding frenzy is more of a well intentioned intervention. It is a tough love intended to toughen up the Republican party. Just about every long winded rant levied at the party ends with a message about the party needing to reform its platform. Some in the media are even going so far as to shut down the Republican public relations machine down. To be fair there is a lot of self interest involved. After all if the Republican party collapses it will just kill the ratings in election season.

Anyway I think Rachel Maddow is totally justified in what she said. After all she has to smile and listen to some of the most vacant individuals possible. How well would you fare if you had to act serious while talking to what amounts to a bad joke. While at the same time deriving a ever decreasing sense of real accomplishment in making a better case, because your opponent is closer to being a drunken, ignorant, stupid dwarf then a heavy weight prize fighter. She may be inflammatory, but it isn't without a really good cause. Republicans being soft targets like this is going to kill her ratings eventually. It is called being a good sport.

Seriously the Republican party needs to go back to the drawing board, because I am pretty certain that any other political party on the planet could have done a better job, and most would have probably won. I can say this, because most parties would tailor a message that would have been popular with the majority of the electorate. You know having a actual case helps a lot. They really had no excuse the opposition was really vulnerable, and not only didn't they win. They almost lost everything that was on the line. There just isn't anything wrong with saying that, or being particularly blunt about that either.



Dodece said:
Seriously the Republican party needs to go back to the drawing board, because I am pretty certain that any other political party on the planet could have done a better job, and most would have probably won. I can say this, because most parties would tailor a message that would have been popular with the majority of the electorate. You know having a actual case helps a lot. They really had no excuse the opposition was really vulnerable, and not only didn't they win. They almost lost everything that was on the line. There just isn't anything wrong with saying that, or being particularly blunt about that either.

I don't know if the overt criticism is really construtive. If anything, it will just make the partisan republicans more republican, to the extent that they're even exposed to that message. As far as the quoted paragraph, I agree. The Republican party needs to do some soul-searching and is going to have to adapt. As for how vulnerability of Obama and the Democrats in general, its kind of weird. Economically speaking, Obama should have been defeated quite handily, but his approval ratings rebounded to over 50% as the election drew near. Honestly though, I think the Republican party should have won given the context and historical trends. Regardless, the 2012 elections are going to cause some revisions to the economic voting models.



GameOver22 said:
gergroy said:


Where di you hear we were one of the top states?  We generally perform middle of the pack when it comes to education and the only reason we do that well is because we have a bit of a cultural advantage.  Utah generally is among the bottom three states on spending per student, but the mormon church is headquarted here and they put a huge emphasis on educatio which is probably the main reason we perform as well as we do.

here are some things the state has tried to do over the last couple of years here in utah.

1. Cut sex education for students comepletely from schools, Instead of teaching the students sex ed, they wanted to have night classes to teach parents sex ed. (If they didnt know sex ed how did they become parents?). Thankfully that one got vetoed by the governor.

2. They wanted to comepletely cut out the 12th grade to save money.  The reason? Because some students dont take their 12th grade year seriously.

3. The schools had been fighting for money for new textbooks for years, but the legislature waited until the schools had to cut funding to some programsto buy textbboks before they ok'd the money.  However, it was stipulated to only be used on textbooks, and since the schools had just bought textbooks, it all got sent back.  A dirty political move that let appear to pay for new textbooks, but in reality they didnt.  

Our state government does crap like that all the time.  Just stupid stuff.  Federal involvement is very minimal.  They just have some minor guidelines for curriculum and special education so kids can kind of learn the same things all over the country.  If the federal government didnt have them, the states would have them anyway, so i dont see any reason to send the money back to the states.  If anything, the federal government is more hands off with it than the state government would be.

That's ridiculous. Student's not taking the 12th grade seriously? If true, what do they think would happen if they cut it? Student's just wouldn't take 11th grade seriously. Truthfully, the issue is that, come 12th grade, students have more important things on their mind, like applying for college and looking for a job. The same thing is true come senior year in college, except replace college with grad school. As far as textbooks, I kind of always wonder how public schools get by....especially when trying to keep up with new editions....although in some disciplines, there isn't really a need for new editions.

I agree, it seems like common sense would dictate that all of these things are bad.  That also may be partly Utah's populations fault.  The people are so Republican that they will vote in the Republican on the ticket no matter what, generally.  Even if they are wacko.



Around the Network
badgenome said:
noname2200 said:
And fewer Republicans did: Romney got just over 2 million fewer votes than John McCain.

That part isn't true. Romney is only about 1 million votes under McCain now, and they're not done counting. He should end up with about 3-4 million more votes than McCain. Similarly, Obama is probably going to be only down about 1-2 million votes from 2008, not the 10 million everyone has been saying. Seems like everyone is just comparing election night tallies of 2012 to the final tally from 2008, when it tooks weeks to arrive at that final count.

I still don't understand why it takes this long to get there. It's the 21st century, we should have an infrastructure for secure, instantaneous voting



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

dsgrue3 said:
GameOver22 said:
dsgrue3 said:
noname2200 said:
Looks like Nate Silver was pretty spot on again.


Indeed. Sam Wang as well. Polls were using a +6 democratic turnout and sure enough that's what happened. The reason I doubted polls throughout was because I couldn't fathom +6 dem turnout rates, especially after reading Pew Research Center's stats on likely voters (76% republican to 62% democrat). Truly fascinating how accurate polls/models have become. Congrats to Obama, now work toward your promises from 2008 and everyone will be pleased.

Its almost like pollsters actually know what they're doing. : )

Edit: Where are you getting those numbers for Pew? I can't find them.


I think Pew actually pulled that article, because I cannot find it. I was able to find their chart via google images that someone apparently had uploaded to facebook lol.

 

Here it is. Interesting numbers.



Mr Khan said:
badgenome said:
noname2200 said:
And fewer Republicans did: Romney got just over 2 million fewer votes than John McCain.

That part isn't true. Romney is only about 1 million votes under McCain now, and they're not done counting. He should end up with about 3-4 million more votes than McCain. Similarly, Obama is probably going to be only down about 1-2 million votes from 2008, not the 10 million everyone has been saying. Seems like everyone is just comparing election night tallies of 2012 to the final tally from 2008, when it tooks weeks to arrive at that final count.

I still don't understand why it takes this long to get there. It's the 21st century, we should have an infrastructure for secure, instantaneous voting

Call me paranoid, but I for one like having some sort of paper trail.



Mr Khan said:
badgenome said:
noname2200 said:
And fewer Republicans did: Romney got just over 2 million fewer votes than John McCain.

That part isn't true. Romney is only about 1 million votes under McCain now, and they're not done counting. He should end up with about 3-4 million more votes than McCain. Similarly, Obama is probably going to be only down about 1-2 million votes from 2008, not the 10 million everyone has been saying. Seems like everyone is just comparing election night tallies of 2012 to the final tally from 2008, when it tooks weeks to arrive at that final count.

I still don't understand why it takes this long to get there. It's the 21st century, we should have an infrastructure for secure, instantaneous voting


Nobody trusts voting machines... they're afraid people are going to tamper with them.



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
badgenome said:
noname2200 said:
And fewer Republicans did: Romney got just over 2 million fewer votes than John McCain.

That part isn't true. Romney is only about 1 million votes under McCain now, and they're not done counting. He should end up with about 3-4 million more votes than McCain. Similarly, Obama is probably going to be only down about 1-2 million votes from 2008, not the 10 million everyone has been saying. Seems like everyone is just comparing election night tallies of 2012 to the final tally from 2008, when it tooks weeks to arrive at that final count.

I still don't understand why it takes this long to get there. It's the 21st century, we should have an infrastructure for secure, instantaneous voting


Nobody trusts voting machines... they're afraid people are going to tamper with them.

I would trust them more than thousands upon millions of paper ballots. My grandma told me stories of her dad, big in local politics, who saw people jam graphite under their finger-nails so that, as they counted ballots, they could mark them as they chose discretely.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.