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Forums - Gaming - News of Agni's Philosophy tech demo to be reviewed in June next year

teigaga said:
HappySqurriel said:
teigaga said:

“So, around June of next year, there will indeed be something different around Agni’s Philosophy, which will be presented on, perhaps, different platforms than those which have been used before,” Merceron told FFDream.

Asked if that meant it wouldn’t be running on PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360, Merceron teased, “I can tell you that it will not run only on PC!”

Obviously this coincides with the expected announcement of PS4/720, Square are not a PC centric developers, the engine is obviously intended for the next gen systems and I believe the tech demo was based loosely off their specs. So we will finally see the engine running on those actuall platforms, not just a high end PC.

Realistically, the tech demo was designed to show off the kind of pretty images the engine could produce and I doubt it was designed around the PS4/XBox 720's specs ...

I could be wrong but I suspect the tech demo was rendered using a PC with multiple high end graphics cards so that everything in the scene could be at the maximum level of detail at all times; and it is unlikely that any HD consoles would match this kind of performance. This isn't to say that it will look much "worse" on Sony or Microsoft's systems, it is just that this tech demo is (probably) similar to the Ungine Heaven demo and they have presented a video at "extreme" detail that is beyond the capabilities of next generation consoles.


I would hope the video represents a likeness as the reports would indicate they they had 720/Obris Dev kits in their possesion whilst developing the demo. If none of the next gen systems can handle these visuals (not necessarily at launch), I'll be very dissapointed.


Expect to be dissapointed ... and also probably not

My personal expectations for games that are built from the ground up for next generation platforms is that the "base level" of detail on most objects is somewhere between what you would expect from a PS2/Gamecube/XBox game and what you would expect from a XBox 360/PS3 game; and probably closer to a PS2/Gamecube/XBox game. The purpose of this level of detail is to cover most of the main details of an object without wasting resources. The next level of detail will be 4 times the number of polygons as that model (roughly similar to an XBox 360/PS3 model), followed by 16 times the number of polygons as the base model, then 64 times, and finally 256 times the number of polygons as the base level model. The use of tessellation is important so that the artists don't have to model each of these levels of detail directly, they just have to define a base model and then subdivide it to the highest level of detail and model that object and a program should be able to create the correct displacement map to make it look good at all levels of detail.

What I would expect from the next generation consoles (including the Wii U) is to have the lowest level of detail for things off in the distance, the second level of detail for things that are moderately far away, the third level of detail for objects that are close up, and the fourth level of detail for examining objects closely (or for the occassional cut scene); and, of course, "off in the distance", "moderately far away", "close up", and "examining objects" will have a different meaning depending on the power each system has.

Why you would be "dissapointed" is that, if you did a wireframe comparison of what the XBox 720 and PS4 produced to this demo, I suspect that none of the consoles will come close to being able to render the kind of detail that this demo represents.

Why you "probably won't be dissapointed" is that there is diminishing returns on increasing detail, most of the difference people notice will actually come early on with only modest increases in processing power, and most people won't see one "next generation" version of the game lacking unless they look at them in side by side. While their could be an order of magnitude difference in processing power, the perceived difference could be closer to the difference in visuals between the PS2 and XBox.



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YukanaSenix said:

SquareEnix isn't only SquareEnix anymore - They have Eidos games too and therefore it would pretty good cause those are western games.
The Luminous Engine is much better than the UE4 especially if you want to show emotions and lively people
UE will again be used for cold stuff like we did see it in this Gen and if there are emotions you will see tears that look like oil.

I hope it will run on an actual PS4 next E3 maybe in combination with a Final Fantasy Exclusive.Its sad SquareEnix did this to Sony and abondoned them,the ones that make them great in the past Gens and still support the ones that destroyed their reputation in only a few years.
If SquareEnix wants back to the throne they have to support the PS4 as their main platform like BandaiNamco did with Tales of

They did that to themselves.



Why you would be "dissapointed" is that, if you did a wireframe comparison of what the XBox 720 and PS4 produced to this demo, I suspect that none of the consoles will come close to being able to render the kind of detail that this demo represents.

lol, yeah I'm not concerned with the wire frames/number of polygons but the end result and thats why I would say I'd hope next gen would have a "likeness" to this. 



I should also mention that another advantage of advanced LOD systems is they could adjust the detail of objects in the environment based on a wide variety of rules that (roughly) judge how likely someone is to notice the detail. Hypothetically speaking, if you were playing a game and there were no enemies around detail could be set to the platform's maximum level, and as more and more enemies came on screen it could reduce the distance representing increased detail and lower the detail level of less noticeable objects.

The net result of this is that when you're walking around and the game is building mood you really get the benefit of everything looking very detailed, but when you're in a firefight with 16 other guys you (probably) don't notice that detail has been reduced to maintain the framerate.



Nah youll see this level of graphics from next gen consoles.

Next xbox ia going to have up to 8 cores and up to 8 GB of RAM from MANY sources. MS is going to make a monster rig and sell it with a subscription fee. They want the next console to last as long as this one to maximize profits and thus will make a bleeding edge console



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BenVTrigger said:
Nah youll see this level of graphics from next gen consoles.

Next xbox ia going to have up to 8 cores and up to 8 GB of RAM from MANY sources. MS is going to make a monster rig and sell it with a subscription fee. They want the next console to last as long as this one to maximize profits and thus will make a bleeding edge console


Which non-anonymous sources?

Beyond that 8-cores doesn't necessarily mean super powerful ... Having an 8 Core version of the XBox 360's processor, an 8 core ARM processor, or an 8 core version of the Intel Atom wouldn't be that powerful relatively speaking. Most of the 8 core processors people imagine in the "XBox 720" are far too expensive and require too much energy to really be part of a games console.

On top of that, the GPU is what really will determine whether the "XBox 720" can handle these kinds of visuals and, being that most of the GPUs I would expect to match this level of detail are 200 Watt GPUs I doubt they will be part of the "XBox 720".

Essentially, what you're thinking of is a 300 Watt console that would (likely) start fires if it was as small as the PS3 was at launch and Microsoft (and Sony) are (probably) far more likely to produce a 75 Watt to 150 Watt console. This would involve a GPU that was between 4 and 8 times the power of the XBox 360 GPU.

 

As I was saying to Teigaga, this doesn't mean that the next generation consoles won't be able to give increased visuals that give the impression of these graphics, but you have to realize that this demo may be running on hardware that is 4 to 8 times as powerful as the "XBox 720" will be.



miz1q2w3e said:

They did that to themselves.


That's actually a good question, why did Square leave Sony in 2008 and released FF XIII in both consoles ?

Was is an agreement between Sony and Square or a fallout ?

Do we have an official version other than Square's insecurity about profits ?



DigitalDevilSummoner said:
miz1q2w3e said:

They did that to themselves.


That's actually a good question, why did Square leave Sony in 2008 and released FF XIII in both consoles ?

Was is an agreement between Sony and Square or a fallout ?

Do we have an official version other than Square's insecurity about profits ?


Square are completely seperate from sony. The reason for the mainline Final Fantasy's exclusivity to the playstation brand from 7-12 is simply a result of console preference. 7 Began production on  N64 but square realised their ambitions meant that they need more more storage space then the N64's cartridges allowed. 7, 8, 9 was the time when the franchise was its mot popular and then their has been brand association with FF and sony. I think FFX and XII remained PS exclusive because Square saw no reason to develop for the seperate platforms because of the success of the playstation brand and the relationship they built with its userbase with 7,8 and 9. 

I think FFXIII became multiplatform for 2 reasons:

1. Playstation 3 did not sell well for its 1st few years, leaving the franchise with a much smaller userbase with then it had in the past. Also the playstation brand was about to be overtaken by the Xbox brand and Square is the sort to align themselfs to the market leader. The lack of power of the wii meant it wasn't viable as a platform because their graphical ambitions with the FF brand is always sky high. This is the same reason why I doubt thin we'll see the any luminous engine games on the Wii U. The only sacrifice they made when porting XIII to the Xbox360 was the number of discs it was on and occasional framerate stutters. 

2. Microsoft paid them. Between 2007-2010 Microsoft pretty much money hatted everyone and everything in effort to make teh 360 the number 1 place 3rd party games. Final Fantasy and Metal Gear Solid were the last of the 3rd party mega sellers, which had provided playstation brand with such a loyal audience. XIII was revealed for 360 at E3 at microsofts press conference so I think they definitely had a hand in bringing it over the system. Hence why  XIV and versus XIII are still currently only planned for PS3.



teigaga said:
DigitalDevilSummoner said:
miz1q2w3e said:

They did that to themselves.


That's actually a good question, why did Square leave Sony in 2008 and released FF XIII in both consoles ?

Was is an agreement between Sony and Square or a fallout ?

Do we have an official version other than Square's insecurity about profits ?


Square are completely seperate from sony. The reason for the mainline Final Fantasy's exclusivity to the playstation brand from 7-12 is simply a result of console preference. 7 Began production on  N64 but sony realised their ambitions meant that they need more more storage space then the N64's cartridges allowed. 

This is a really widely spread misconception. It is based on the belief that the FF VI Sigraph 95 demo was actually running on Nintendo 64 dev kit, and the idea that since Square had always developed their games for Nintendo consoles, the series would continue on the N64. The demo (with Locke, Celes, Shadow and a Golem) was actually developed using the Onyx workstation from Silicon Graphics. Not an actual Nintendo dev kit.

When Nintendo decided to stick to the cartridge format (because they didn't want any loading screens), Square judged that the format couldn't hold enough data to make their vision possible. Sakaguchi (who was basically running the company at the time) had always been a fervent movie lover, and he wanted the cut-scenes of his games to be of better quality than what polygonal graphics could provide back then. It was while doing test with the Onyx that he got impressed with what could be done and came to this realisation. The CD format was cheap, and could hold much more information than the NB64 cartridge, allowing him to move closer and closer to what his vision of his Final Fantasy series should be.

So the move to Sony was a matter of format. 



teigaga said:

2. Microsoft paid them.


I kinda lean towards this... I mean Final Fantasy is not just another game that would have developers worry about userbase.

Square knows the have one of the rare system sellers. Something must have happened to have changed Square's mind.