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Forums - Politics - How am I supposed to know?

dsgrue3 said:

I am sure someone proposed taxing the rich, but the only result would be more revenue for the government. The government doesn't create jobs, so what is the point of this additional revenue? It certainly isn't stimulating the economy. We tried that, and it failed miserably.

Does the government not employ teachers, fire fighters, police officers, military personnel, scientists, engineers, judges, lawyers, park rangers, construction crews...?



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Immortal said:

@insomniac17, I understand I'm selling myself as a moron here, but please don't think I haven't considered such a commonly used moral issue. I said I believe in saving lives, not utilitarianism, necessarily. In that example, I'm not sure what I'd do; I don't know if one life is less valuable than five. On the other hand, if it were saving a life against taking some rich person's property, that seems perfectly viable to me morally and only the very libertarian fringe of people would disagree. For all these questions you ask, I believe it's a complicated situation that needs to be thoroughly discussed and have no immediate answers. I don't agree that "no action" is the best course of action morally, though. Not at all.

I don't think you're a moron. The reason I highlight this is because I think it shows the importance of a logically consistent system. There is no ambiguity in what is and is not "moral" in such a system, and it cannot be twisted to serve anyone... whereas with an arbitrary system, anything could be made to be correct. 

The problem with seizing property of a rich person is... well, everything. How do you define who is rich and who isn't? How much of their property can you take before it stops being fair? Who makes these definitions and why can't someone else make them? What gives you the right to take a rich person's property, but doesn't give them the right to take your property? I can understand why you might be inclined to do such a thing, but it opens up a world of contradictions and problems that can lead to far worse situations than the one you tried to solve with your good intentions.

To be fair, those questions I posed are not easily answered. According to the non-aggression principle, which is a core part of libertarianism for many (but not all) libertarians, the right choice is to not act aggresively against someone else. To do otherwise is to claim a greater right to how someone else can use their body or their property, which cannot be a universally consistent principle.

The NAP does not make any sort of assertions towards what should be done if someone violates it, however. It could be that in the trolley problem, no one would sue you for pressing the button to kill one, rather than doing nothing to kill five. But there is a right and wrong answer in this problem, and you must make that decision knowing that you have acted aggressively and you have to deal with the consequences of that choice.



@ Immortal
Yes, yes it's had to change. But during this process we've established some facts that have proven correct time and time again against endless criticism, like the earth orbiting the sun for example.
Do you think that theory will ever be proven wrong?



I LOVE ICELAND!

Immortal said:

While high school biology is enough to understand the processes, I don't think it's enough to understand the evidence, which is the part that's a problem. And if common people can't understand genetics and genetics is an important factor in politics, then my problem persists.

Also, surely, you're just joking about climate change. Even mere high school science explains a lot more about it, such as greenhouse gasses and other stuff. It's not that simple and to properly understand the science concerning it is probably even harder. Besides, by saying that you're a climate change skeptic, you're basically doubting the scientific consensus, aren't you?

And, I'm not here to actually argue with you about taxes. Your statement was that it's completely accepted that taxes are a bad idea right now, which is obviously untrue since some significant number of people seem to think so (even if they're wrong, as you say).

Evolution really has nothing to do with politics so it is a non-issue.

In regard to climate change I was referring to the human element, not change itself.

If an idiot argues that gravity doesn't exist, that does not refute the general acceptance of it. (This is in response to your statement on taxes).

 

the_dengle said:

dsgrue3 said:

I am sure someone proposed taxing the rich, but the only result would be more revenue for the government. The government doesn't create jobs, so what is the point of this additional revenue? It certainly isn't stimulating the economy. We tried that, and it failed miserably.

Does the government not employ teachers, fire fighters, police officers, military personnel, scientists, engineers, judges, lawyers, park rangers, construction crews...?

155 million work force. Roughly 15% of that is public sector - those would be government jobs.

The government doesn't create jobs for the private sector was really my point. Didn't think I needed to point out the obvious...



Immortal said:
@SamuelRSmith, I hope that video wasn't directed at me. I much prefer reading people's reasoning to listening to their idols.


He's not my idol. I just so happened to watch this video after reading this thread. Addresses some of the topics you've brought up.

Watch it if you want, but I'm not going to rewrite or offer my own reasoning for it. Frankly, it's not worth my time.



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dsgrue3 said:
Immortal said:
@dsgrue3, of course you do. I have yet to meet a religious person who doesn't. That's not the point, though. Is the biology really simple enough for everyone to understand, though? And, if it is, is it the same for the science behind climate change? Homosexuality? For taxes, while I'm unclear on the specifics, surely, you've argued this with someone else on this forum by now? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I believe there was a Politics thread about someone wanting to raise the taxes (firstly) on the rich very recently/

Biology is a required course for every high school student, so yes, the science behind it is easily understood at a top level. If you're asking whether anyone can understand all the intricacies involved in genetics, then not without years of additional education on the subject matter.  Most processes can be described in easy to understand terms. If they aren't, then either that source is beyond the scope of your knowledge or it is a bad source.

I don't think that's a good example. The fact that biology can be taught at the high school level doesn't mean that the students actually understand biology. Being able to regurgitate facts is a lot different from understanding the underlying meaning behind a field, and I would argue that being able to truly understand and analyze biological research depends on at least a college-level (probably higher) understanding of the material. I think the main point here is, if you asked a high-schooler whether evolution is true, there's a big difference between citing a textbook or teacher and actually explaining or justifying why that textbook or teacher is right.

Maybe another way of putting it is that there is a difference between a survey understanding of the material and a detailed understanding of the material. The later provides a way to analyze information. The former just gives you a bunch of unorganized facts.