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Forums - General Discussion - You Don't Necessarily Owe God Anything

Jay520 on 27 October 2012
DaRev said:

The mistakes of Adam and Eve, I believe, are a representation of all of us. Meaning that if either of us were the first humans on earth, we also would disobey God EVENTUALLY.  So you and I or anyone else are no different than Adam or Eve. If you were put into the garden, you also would sin EVENTUALLY and we all would be in the same mess – or do you think you’re PERFECT and would NEVER break ANY of God’s rules?

Also, Christian philosophy I think teaches that the contract was with Adam, not Eve, so it was Adam’s sin, not necessarily Eve’s, that cause the whole world into Sin. But that is another whole barrel of fish that we don’t want to get into here, some real deep stuff.

 


So what you're saying is it's theoretically impossible for a human to not sin. Sinning is an intrinsic part of being human. If that were true, then 1.) Humans do not have free will because we are incapable of not sinning, and 2.) God punishes humans for their innate essence - something humans do not have control over. 

Also, do you literally believe the world stemmed from just two people?



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DaRev on 27 October 2012
the2real4mafol said:
DaRev said:
the2real4mafol said:
Interesting theory, but i'm atheist so i don't believe in god, which means I owe him nothing! I have what I have because of my family or my actions, a so called god didn't gave me any fortune or misfortune, it's up to me.

Any problems in this world are created by the selfish act of other people, not a god's incompetence


Yours is an interesting theory as well. For if you believe that all you or anyone has is a result of some human action - then where did you and all other humans themselves come from being able to create those actions to obtain stuff? Also, what about things like air and the sun which humans certainly did not create, where did they come from, logically?

You are right, we didn't create the sun or air or water, but neither did a god, we don't know where they came from, but we are lucky to have them. But I say we get stuff because of our own actions because we control what we do but also our lives are this way because of what people did in the past, people are willing to do things to get wealthier and advance the human race, which is nothing to do with a god. For example, medicine is much better than it ever was before, because people made it better and so more people live. 

But i see you like Nintendo, so i'll try to link to that. Say, if Miyamoto or anyone else didn't choose to expand Nintendo into gaming in the 1980's, great games like Mario or Zelda wouldn't of existed. That's my point

So, you just OK in knowing that things like the sun, air, NATURE exists and really don't care where they came from? Or are you to afraid that if you really thought about it, logically, you're might find that your way viewing the world and where it came from would fall apart?

Your correct that our lives are very depended on what we did in the past - for example, Jesus lived in the past and thus we has Christianity and all of its teachings that we are now debating and affecting our lives even today

As for Mr. Miyamoto, if you trace his ancestory back to his first orginal father and mother - where do you think they came from? Meanng who were the first Father and Mother on Earth?, logically speaking of course



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Jay520 on 27 October 2012
DaRev said:

Yours is an interesting theory as well. For if you believe that all you or anyone has is a result of some human action - then where did you and all other humans themselves come from being ale to create those actions to obtain stuff? Also, what about things like air and the sun which humans certainly did not create, where did they come from, logically?


There are numerous theories that explain the origin of the sun and air that do not involve the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibeloved, and omnipresent creator. 



Jay520 on 27 October 2012
DaRev said:

Firstly, God designed MAN perfectly and without any flaws (and certainly not designed to fail), but with the freedom of CHOICE to love or not to love him, God who created man. If you’re saying that MAN’s freedom of choice to love is a flaw then, you don’t understand LOVE. I assume then the you would prefer that God created you without the FLAW of freedom of choice to love him or not?

 

That's not true. If humans were designed perfectly, then they would have made the perfect choice by choosing to love god.



the2real4mafol on 27 October 2012
DaRev said:
the2real4mafol said:
DaRev said:
the2real4mafol said:
Interesting theory, but i'm atheist so i don't believe in god, which means I owe him nothing! I have what I have because of my family or my actions, a so called god didn't gave me any fortune or misfortune, it's up to me.

Any problems in this world are created by the selfish act of other people, not a god's incompetence


Yours is an interesting theory as well. For if you believe that all you or anyone has is a result of some human action - then where did you and all other humans themselves come from being able to create those actions to obtain stuff? Also, what about things like air and the sun which humans certainly did not create, where did they come from, logically?

You are right, we didn't create the sun or air or water, but neither did a god, we don't know where they came from, but we are lucky to have them. But I say we get stuff because of our own actions because we control what we do but also our lives are this way because of what people did in the past, people are willing to do things to get wealthier and advance the human race, which is nothing to do with a god. For example, medicine is much better than it ever was before, because people made it better and so more people live. 

But i see you like Nintendo, so i'll try to link to that. Say, if Miyamoto or anyone else didn't choose to expand Nintendo into gaming in the 1980's, great games like Mario or Zelda wouldn't of existed. That's my point

So, you just OK in knowing that things like the sun, air, NATURE exists and really don't care where they came from? Or are you to afraid that if you really thought about it, logically, you're might find that your way viewing the world and where it came from would fall apart?

Your correct that our lives are very depended on what we did in the past - for example, Jesus lived in the past and thus we has Christianity and all of its teachings that we are now debating and affecting our lives even today

As for Mr. Miyamoto, if you trace his ancestory back to his first orginal father and mother - where do you think they came from? Meanng who were the first Father and Mother on Earth?, logically speaking of course

I just don't think nature exists because of some god that probably don't exist anyway. It's impossible to know how life started on Earth and not other planets around it, so i just ignore that, nature was around before people or any religion.

Also, is there any proof that a Jesus existed in bethlehem 2000 years ago?

As for the last part, I don't think we could track back to the first humans, but whoever they were they just evolved from another animal species. I just believe in Charles Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory, where things evolve to fit their environment best over time



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AstroGamer on 27 October 2012
the2real4mafol said:
DaRev said:
the2real4mafol said:
DaRev said:
the2real4mafol said:
Interesting theory, but i'm atheist so i don't believe in god, which means I owe him nothing! I have what I have because of my family or my actions, a so called god didn't gave me any fortune or misfortune, it's up to me.

Any problems in this world are created by the selfish act of other people, not a god's incompetence


Yours is an interesting theory as well. For if you believe that all you or anyone has is a result of some human action - then where did you and all other humans themselves come from being able to create those actions to obtain stuff? Also, what about things like air and the sun which humans certainly did not create, where did they come from, logically?

You are right, we didn't create the sun or air or water, but neither did a god, we don't know where they came from, but we are lucky to have them. But I say we get stuff because of our own actions because we control what we do but also our lives are this way because of what people did in the past, people are willing to do things to get wealthier and advance the human race, which is nothing to do with a god. For example, medicine is much better than it ever was before, because people made it better and so more people live. 

But i see you like Nintendo, so i'll try to link to that. Say, if Miyamoto or anyone else didn't choose to expand Nintendo into gaming in the 1980's, great games like Mario or Zelda wouldn't of existed. That's my point

So, you just OK in knowing that things like the sun, air, NATURE exists and really don't care where they came from? Or are you to afraid that if you really thought about it, logically, you're might find that your way viewing the world and where it came from would fall apart?

Your correct that our lives are very depended on what we did in the past - for example, Jesus lived in the past and thus we has Christianity and all of its teachings that we are now debating and affecting our lives even today

As for Mr. Miyamoto, if you trace his ancestory back to his first orginal father and mother - where do you think they came from? Meanng who were the first Father and Mother on Earth?, logically speaking of course

I just don't think nature exists because of some god that probably don't exist anyway. It's impossible to know how life started on Earth and not other planets around it, so i just ignore that, nature was around before people or any religion.

Also, is there any proof that a Jesus existed in bethlehem 2000 years ago?

As for the last part, I don't think we could track back to the first humans, but whoever they were they just evolved from another animal species. I just believe in Charles Darwin's "survival of the fittest" theory, where things evolve to fit their environment best over time


On your second "paragraph" yes there is. First of all, even if jesus didn't exist, then the intricate teachings from the bible have to come from somewhere. That creator of those rather radical ideas of the time was "Jesus". Second of all, The sheer number of texts (both true and fake) mention Jesus's name. To universally come up with the same name at roughly same period of time would be highly improbable in 1st and 2nd century AD, so someone named Jesus was teaching these things around that time. Third of all, there are numerous pieces of historical evidence that even several textbooks accept that Jesus of Nazareth was alive and teaching this stuff around 0 AD. His miracles are still up to debate as it is hard to prove something like produce enough bread to feed 5000 from only a few loaves.

I view the genesis story as a neccesary evil. If we wanted complete "free will", then we needed to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil (aka morality). Otherwise, we would be just like dogs, loyal to their master but not making rational choices. He then, punished us to get us to understand that bad things will be punished so that we don't go around commiting evil deeds repeatedly( like serial killers and such).    



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Immortal on 27 October 2012
Jay520 said:


I don't think you know what arguments entirely consist of. But I see you're making a point based on assumptions that I and many others do not follow, so you're correct: Any further discussion is pointless.


You know, you could've said that before I made my long and involved post, :P. Besides, it's not as if I share that assumption, either.



 

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neerdowell on 27 October 2012

Seriously dude...another religious discussion thread? How many is this now? Your persistence makes me question your earlier statements about your only agenda being to stimulate discussion.

OT, I second curl-6's statement. Religion is not bound to traditional logic. No, that doesn't mean it entirely defies logic, it just means that it is it's own form of logic. You can expect it to remain consistent within it's own logic; however, you cannot hold it accountable to your own.



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rccsetzer on 27 October 2012

Reincarnation explains everything. It is the only way to implement divine justice.



DaRev on 27 October 2012
Jay520 said:
DaRev said:

The mistakes of Adam and Eve, I believe, are a representation of all of us. Meaning that if either of us were the first humans on earth, we also would disobey God EVENTUALLY.  So you and I or anyone else are no different than Adam or Eve. If you were put into the garden, you also would sin EVENTUALLY and we all would be in the same mess – or do you think you’re PERFECT and would NEVER break ANY of God’s rules?

Also, Christian philosophy I think teaches that the contract was with Adam, not Eve, so it was Adam’s sin, not necessarily Eve’s, that cause the whole world into Sin. But that is another whole barrel of fish that we don’t want to get into here, some real deep stuff.

 


So what you're saying is it's theoretically impossible for a human to not sin. Sinning is an intrinsic part of being human. If that were true, then 1.) Humans do not have free will because we are incapable of not sinning, and 2.) God punishes humans for their innate essence - something humans do not have control over. 

Also, do you literally believe the world stemmed from just two people

Well, I would say that, without the help of God, it is impossible for humans to not sin or even know what sin is. I believe that being true (1) humans do, however, have free will and can accept that God’s teaching which inevitably makes humans POTENTIALLY incapable of sin (read Romans 6), (2) God does punish humans for their innate essence, but humans, with God’s help, can overcome their innate desires, and even if they fail to do so, God will not see them as sinners but children who have made a mistake a will be forgiven if they ask to be.

Yes, I believe the world steamed from two people. For example, I saw a documentary about the American Wild Mustang/Horses and how a small number were brought to America. In just a couple hundred years they number in the millions. Same applies to any other species on earth, including humans. Introduce a small number into a new environment, give it a couple hundred years, and watch the population grow. Humans had many thousands of years to populate the earth, yes, from just two people.



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I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.