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Forums - Politics - 2nd debate, who won? Obama or Romney?

 

Who won the 2nd debate?

President Barack Obama 299 57.72%
 
Governor MItt Romney 149 28.76%
 
Nobody/tie 70 13.51%
 
Total:518
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Look, the attack would have been an act of terrorism whether it was a coordinated, premeditated assassination or an act of semi-spontaneous violence centered around an organized rally.

There's too much loading going on behind the meaning of the word "terror," here.

That said, Obama should have hammered on the fact that Republicans have been starving the State Department of essential funds to help prevent just this sort of thing.

Like I mentioned in the thread you specifically created about that... it wouldn't work, because Romney would then just point out how much security is wasted in countries with competent defense.

 

Also... I wouldn't say killing people in a riot is an act of terroism.

 

I mean... if the Chinese ambassador to the US is in New York... and some people are protesting chinese jobs overseas and a riot happens, that eventually leads to the death of the chinese ambassador...

I don't think anybody would consider that terrorism.

At least I wouldn't.

I would. Those people clearly came with the intention to start shit up, and if it gets violent, then it moves into the realm of terrorism.

It's like, second-degree terrorism. Not planned or plotted, but still violence with the intent to send a message of some sort, which is terrorism.


So... just to be clear then.. you'd also consider the anti-WTO anarcist protestors as terrorists since they often get violent intentionally.

As well as the various Occupy Wallstreet groups who got agressive and started throwing stones and such.

Essentially, any protest that gets violent = terrorism.

Afterall the only difference between domestic terrorism and terrorism is the target right?



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Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Look, the attack would have been an act of terrorism whether it was a coordinated, premeditated assassination or an act of semi-spontaneous violence centered around an organized rally.

There's too much loading going on behind the meaning of the word "terror," here.

That said, Obama should have hammered on the fact that Republicans have been starving the State Department of essential funds to help prevent just this sort of thing.

Like I mentioned in the thread you specifically created about that... it wouldn't work, because Romney would then just point out how much security is wasted in countries with competent defense.

 

Also... I wouldn't say killing people in a riot is an act of terroism.

 

I mean... if the Chinese ambassador to the US is in New York... and some people are protesting chinese jobs overseas and a riot happens, that eventually leads to the death of the chinese ambassador...

I don't think anybody would consider that terrorism.

At least I wouldn't.

I would. Those people clearly came with the intention to start shit up, and if it gets violent, then it moves into the realm of terrorism.

It's like, second-degree terrorism. Not planned or plotted, but still violence with the intent to send a message of some sort, which is terrorism.


So... just to be clear then.. you'd also consider the anti-WTO anarcist protestors as terrorists since they often get violent intentionally.

As well as the various Occupy Wallstreet groups who got agressive and started throwing stones and such.

Essentially, any protest that gets violent = terrorism.

Pretty much, yes. "Incidental terrorism." Just like how a fight where someone happens to kill someone else in a fit of rage is still murder, but it still fits the means and motive of terrorism, just without the scale or planning.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
Look, the attack would have been an act of terrorism whether it was a coordinated, premeditated assassination or an act of semi-spontaneous violence centered around an organized rally.

There's too much loading going on behind the meaning of the word "terror," here.

That said, Obama should have hammered on the fact that Republicans have been starving the State Department of essential funds to help prevent just this sort of thing.

Like I mentioned in the thread you specifically created about that... it wouldn't work, because Romney would then just point out how much security is wasted in countries with competent defense.

 

Also... I wouldn't say killing people in a riot is an act of terroism.

 

I mean... if the Chinese ambassador to the US is in New York... and some people are protesting chinese jobs overseas and a riot happens, that eventually leads to the death of the chinese ambassador...

I don't think anybody would consider that terrorism.

At least I wouldn't.

I would. Those people clearly came with the intention to start shit up, and if it gets violent, then it moves into the realm of terrorism.

It's like, second-degree terrorism. Not planned or plotted, but still violence with the intent to send a message of some sort, which is terrorism.


So... just to be clear then.. you'd also consider the anti-WTO anarcist protestors as terrorists since they often get violent intentionally.

As well as the various Occupy Wallstreet groups who got agressive and started throwing stones and such.

Essentially, any protest that gets violent = terrorism.

Pretty much, yes. "Incidental terrorism." Just like how a fight where someone happens to kill someone else in a fit of rage is still murder, but it still fits the means and motive of terrorism, just without the scale or planning.


I... guess I just disagree.  Don't even know where to go to from there then.  I hope your definition never makes it into legal precedent.

That would more or less make any mob violence terrorism... which is an extremely terrifying precedent since essentially that means any protest of the government could be seen or it atleast eaisly made to be "Terrorism"... alowing american citizens to be detained under the NDAA.  All you would need to do is put one or two plants in.  Start violence.  Bam suddenly everyone in the mob, even those minding their buisness is a terroirst/supporting terroism/suspected terrorist" and can be held indefinitly without trial.



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Pretty much, yes. "Incidental terrorism." Just like how a fight where someone happens to kill someone else in a fit of rage is still murder, but it still fits the means and motive of terrorism, just without the scale or planning.


I... guess I just disagree.  Don't even know where to go to from there then.  I hope your definition never makes it into legal precedent.

That would more or less make any mob violence terrorism... which is an extremely terrifying precedent since essentially that means any protest of the government could be seen or it atleast eaisly made to be "Terrorism"... alowing american citizens to be detained under the NDAA.  All you would need to do is put one or two plants in.  Start violence.  Bam suddenly everyone in the mob, even those minding their buisness is a terroirst/supporting terroism/suspected terrorist" and can be held indefinitly without trial.


I think you guys are moving away from what actually happened here.  The original story was that it was a demonstration that turned ugly when somebody pulled out an RPG and shot it at the consolate.  I don't know about you, but what angry mob or demonstration has an RPG handy?  



gergroy said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Pretty much, yes. "Incidental terrorism." Just like how a fight where someone happens to kill someone else in a fit of rage is still murder, but it still fits the means and motive of terrorism, just without the scale or planning.


I... guess I just disagree.  Don't even know where to go to from there then.  I hope your definition never makes it into legal precedent.

That would more or less make any mob violence terrorism... which is an extremely terrifying precedent since essentially that means any protest of the government could be seen or it atleast eaisly made to be "Terrorism"... alowing american citizens to be detained under the NDAA.  All you would need to do is put one or two plants in.  Start violence.  Bam suddenly everyone in the mob, even those minding their buisness is a terroirst/supporting terroism/suspected terrorist" and can be held indefinitly without trial.


I think you guys are moving away from what actually happened here.  The original story was that it was a demonstration that turned ugly when somebody pulled out an RPG and shot it at the consolate.  I don't know about you, but what angry mob or demonstration has an RPG handy?  

In the middle east?  It's probably more likely then you'd expect.

Espiecally in a country that just had it's government overthrown by a bunch of random armies with weapons.

Though granted... to bring it to the consulate would suggest some level of premediation no doubt.

 

However though... if say, instead of that an angry mob just overwhelmed and killed someone.  I wouldn't call that terrorism i'd call that mob violence and prosecute it through the normal justice system, and not arrest people for terrorism.



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Kasz216 said:
gergroy said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Pretty much, yes. "Incidental terrorism." Just like how a fight where someone happens to kill someone else in a fit of rage is still murder, but it still fits the means and motive of terrorism, just without the scale or planning.


I... guess I just disagree.  Don't even know where to go to from there then.  I hope your definition never makes it into legal precedent.

That would more or less make any mob violence terrorism... which is an extremely terrifying precedent since essentially that means any protest of the government could be seen or it atleast eaisly made to be "Terrorism"... alowing american citizens to be detained under the NDAA.  All you would need to do is put one or two plants in.  Start violence.  Bam suddenly everyone in the mob, even those minding their buisness is a terroirst/supporting terroism/suspected terrorist" and can be held indefinitly without trial.


I think you guys are moving away from what actually happened here.  The original story was that it was a demonstration that turned ugly when somebody pulled out an RPG and shot it at the consolate.  I don't know about you, but what angry mob or demonstration has an RPG handy?  

In the middle east?  It's probably more likely then you'd expect.

Espiecally in a country that just had it's government overthrown by a bunch of random armies with weapons.

Though granted... to bring it to the consulate would suggest some level of premediation no doubt.

 

However though... if say, instead of that an angry mob just overwhelmed and killed someone.  I wouldn't call that terrorism i'd call that mob violence and prosecute it through the normal justice system, and not arrest people for terrorism.

We're misunderstanding each other. I'm not saying to change the legal definition, but i am saying that it would be okay to call such things "terror," since mob violence is a form of terror in the sense that it generally achieves the same ends as "terrorism" and generally with a similar motive, just a different execution.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
gergroy said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

 

 

In the middle east?  It's probably more likely then you'd expect.

Espiecally in a country that just had it's government overthrown by a bunch of random armies with weapons.

Though granted... to bring it to the consulate would suggest some level of premediation no doubt.

 

However though... if say, instead of that an angry mob just overwhelmed and killed someone.  I wouldn't call that terrorism i'd call that mob violence and prosecute it through the normal justice system, and not arrest people for terrorism.

We're misunderstanding each other. I'm not saying to change the legal definition, but i am saying that it would be okay to call such things "terror," since mob violence is a form of terror in the sense that it generally achieves the same ends as "terrorism" and generally with a similar motive, just a different execution.


You specifically used the direct term of terrorism twice.  Which is a totally different thing.



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

We're misunderstanding each other. I'm not saying to change the legal definition, but i am saying that it would be okay to call such things "terror," since mob violence is a form of terror in the sense that it generally achieves the same ends as "terrorism" and generally with a similar motive, just a different execution.


You specifically used the direct term of terrorism twice.  Which is a totally different thing.

I committed an error of semantics, then. Sorry about that.

I was just saying that what Obama went for initially was still acceptable, to call it "terror" even if he believed it was motivated by random mob violence, since killing the American ambassador over a video would still qualify as "terror."



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
 

We're misunderstanding each other. I'm not saying to change the legal definition, but i am saying that it would be okay to call such things "terror," since mob violence is a form of terror in the sense that it generally achieves the same ends as "terrorism" and generally with a similar motive, just a different execution.


You specifically used the direct term of terrorism twice.  Which is a totally different thing.

I committed an error of semantics, then. Sorry about that.

I was just saying that what Obama went for initially was still acceptable, to call it "terror" even if he believed it was motivated by random mob violence, since killing the American ambassador over a video would still qualify as "terror."


Except he went for it as him specifically saying he identified it as a terrorist attack immediatly... in response to Romney saying it took weeks for the Obama administration to let us know it was terrorism and not a demonstration.

If you look at the debate transcripts Romney first said

"It was a terrorist attack and it took a long time for that to be told to the American people. Whether there was some misleading, or instead whether we just didn't know what happened, you have to ask yourself why didn't we know five days later when the ambassador to the United Nations went on TV to say that this was a demonstration. How could we have not known?"

followed by

"The day after the attack, governor, I stood in the Rose Garden and I told the American people in the world that we are going to find out exactly what happened. That this was an act of terror and I also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime."

 

So i think we can both agree that it was in fact a political dodge where he tried to use terror as a substitue for act of terrorism.  (not to mention he never actually directly infered to it as such.

However, unlike your mistake... I don't think Obama's was one of semantics.



chocoloco said:

So have any undecided voters here other than Nintendo pie decide who to vote for finally?

I know who I would vote for if I was able to vote.