amp316 said: Hey guys, let's try to not get so angry when people don't agree with everything that we say. Also, let's try to get back to the original subject. I personally think that a person is attracted to someone of the same sex just because that's the way they are wired (genetics). I personally love looking at ladies and have no control over it it and I'm sure that a gay man feels the same way when seeing an attractive man.

Its kinda hard not to get heated on something that affects you directly (not talking about in this thread. so far it has been mostly civil thank goodness). Its like the Rich trying to tell you why the poor is poor or the poor trying to tell the rich why they are rich. There is a certain level of understanding many people fail to grasp unless they literally walk in their shoes(which is virtually impossible to do). When society is trying to tell you that you are "making it up" because it doesn't fit in their preconceptions, and telling you that you are somehow mentally ill, it is almost  impossible for it to not strike a nerve.

I think this discussion is easier once we really start to eliminate what it is NOT. It most assuredly cannot be a conscious choice so that is out of the question. That leaves...
-Subconscious
-Genetic
-Environmental Factors/Social

Now to just come up with definitive definitions of those three, look for what it has in common, and go from there.

forevercloud3000 said: Outward stimuli also can influence our eating habits but It will never go dictate our genetic desire to eat when hungry. I've learned that someone's sexual preference is a constant, never seems to change. If it directly be dictated by outward forces people could actually be "Ex-Gay". But all of my study has proven that apparently once you go gay(at whatever degree they are), you never go back...and I can't believe something that isn't genetic yet influenced would be that way. This is not to be confused with someone's actual level of sexual preference of being more bisexual in nature and going back and forth between the two. That is not quitting gaydom and becoming straight, that is you like both and freely choose between the two. To believe otherwise is to say with enough conditioning therapy one can be switched to either or and I don't believe that is true for me or anyone else. The fact that 2 kids born in the same home, raised the same way and still one is hetero, the other homo. Or the fact that some areas of the world are so blatantly hostile to gays that they are threatened with tortures and death such as anal gluing(they inject a paste up the anus that hardens and makes it impossible to deficate without tearing your anus inside out which leads to a slow and excruciating death) yet STILL homosexuality prevails as a supposed "sub/con choice". If anything that would force someone to subconsciously surpress those feelings. Yet sexual desires are almost uncontrollable in that aspect. We like what we like sexually(as far as him or her) and that never seems to change.

Pretty much agree with everything except these two paragraphs. For the first paragraph: If something is the result of what you learned, that doesn't imply that it would be constantly changing (or even changeable) as you learn new things. For example, one perspective of psychology states that the bulk our personalities are pretty much set at around age 5-6. So while we can learn new behavior, our subconscious is essentially already developed. For the record, I do believe that with sufficient therapy, the mind can be conditioned to some pretty bizarre and dramatic changes; the mind is a lot more controllable and powerful than many may think. But this is more based on my own experience and is just a personal belief.

And as for the second paragraph: We can only assume parts of their environmental are equal (equal home, region, family, etc). However, they're sense of self could be vastly different. For example, one could be more outgoing and one more shy. One could be more favored in the family than another. One could develop different social groups than the other. In essence its quite possible that these kids develop vastly different mindsets and different positions in their social groups. The implications of these seemingly minor discrepancies can have a profound effect on something like sexual preference.

Genetics just don't seem to play a large role to me. Sexual preference doesn't even form in many people until several years after birth, so it just doesn't make sense imo that pre-birth factors would be more significant than factors occuring during the actual development of sexual preference (which again isn't until many years after birth). Perhaps I am biased though since I study both sociology and psychology, both of which tend to lean away from genetic/biological factors as the causes of behavior, especially with sociology.

forevercloud3000 said: On Topic, I believe it to be Genetic Factors. The idea that someone would ever consciously choose to be a target of social ridicule and violence is ridiculous to me. Now subconsciously there are things that effect "Sexual Identity" yet not the preference as a whole. Let me explain that for a moment. First off, the idea that Sexual Identity can somehow be encapsulated in such a black and white ideal, gay or straight, is cutting it short. Neither truly exist, and we are basically all on a scale somewhere on the "bi" charts. There will be aspects of either sex that appeal to one person more than the next. Also, I think we frequently confuse "behaviors" such as femininity or masculinity as forever attached to gender/sexual preference but we know that is not the case. I think Fem/Masc levels are the part that are determined by social stimuli which become the outward appearance of a person's sexual identity. There are plenty of gay people you could never tell by the way they act, and then there are plenty of metro-sexual straight men these days that prune and groom more than women. Now these genetic factors are manipulating hormone levels in the brain. Studies have shown hormones control growth/behavior patterns of the entire body, especially in puberty. Certain parts of a gay person's brain is similar to those of the opposite sex (on average). And then we have all seen as Jane Lynch describes as "Gay face", men with overly effeminate facial features(Bowie), and we have women who grow facial hair. Yet those things are subtle knit picky appearance differences. If you need something else about Humans for reference....take the fact some of us are left or right handed. These are widely believed to be controlled by genetic factors, it has to do with which hemisphere of the brain is dominant in the individual. Now there are no outward factors of which hand we should use....only that most use their right. Can you switch hands? Technically yes, ask my grandmother who's hands were beaten horrendously in grade school until she learned to write with her right hand. Yet it always felt awkward to her and Shrinks say it can cause reprehensible brain damage. The idea that parenting/social things could dictate which sex you tend towards just doesn't sit well with me. The stories of "An overbearing Mother, Distant Father = Gay Son" isn't based on any actual findings, just quick assumption with no firm statistics. Many people are born with one parent these days....more often than not they are still straight. And aren't ALL mothers a tad overbearing? That is just the Serotonin making them cray cray. This hypothesis was almost entirely based on the child's fem/masc outcome, originally thought to be one and the same with sexual preference. Now the genetic factors that dictated SP also alter what we take in as far as knowledge. A son that is genetically set to be "gay"(hate using these labels) might pay more attention to his mother's actions in relation to his father.....because he wants to be able to court a man like his mom. Now of course the question is....why would our genes do this? Isn't the purpose of life "To pro create"? This is at least what my roommate asked me and I laughed in disgust. We confuse human nature's desire to SUSTAIN LIFE as simply popping out babies. Sustaining life takes more than just having future generations of offspring. We have to have enough resources to keep all of them alive. This is why humans form many different types of couplings. We have tribal/groupings, family dynamics, and romantic inclinations all geared towards sustaining us. SethNintendo might have been joking, but I think it does come down to overpopulation. I think that our genes are constantly crunching numbers of possible outcomes. The statistics say that at LEAST 1/10 men/women are more homo-sexually inclined. And that the more children a person has hightens the odds that one will be gay. I believe this to be true because what if our genes are reading the level of children our grandparents,our parents, and then we have, then it decides that under the suspicion that you all are in close proximity like a family should be that the rate of reproduction should be slowed down by general odds? Personally, my Grandmother had 7 kids, my mom had 5 and the two youngest(me and my sister) are gay and bi respectfully. Humans need to be around each other to keep odds of survival in our favor hence the reason genes opt to compel us pair up. And what if gay people's role in a social aspect is simply to enrich it and help progress it for further generations? Let me explain. The Stereotypical(stereotypes are not wrong, just not always right) gay person has a higher IQ than the average person, they somehow always become the confidante friend to tell all your problems to, have been known to propagate fashion trends of almost every generation, and generally raise housing market value in any neighborhood they move into due to their need to fix-up things. This isn't completely consistent across the board but when taking that step back to look at the bigger picture.....it seems like an important enough role to prove need. All this is excluding the research done on animals that show some working on a exclusively gay/bisexual basis(Dolphins and Penguins are famous for being gayest animals in existence, Bonobo monkeys have sex indiscriminately) and only meeting up with the other sex to have children. Or the idea that 3 is a crowd is a human social sentiment and that most animals are polygamist such as a certain gull species that exists in a trio parental structure(1 male watches babies, 1 protects them, and female finds food).

In case some of you didn't see my full synopsis. I think the theme off sexuality becomes a lot clearer when we stop thinking in "either or" and thinking of it just as a "spectrum of possibilities". I wish I could make a line graph of it but this will have to do. Where the top is Environmental factors that are manipulated and the right being gentic disposition.

	Masculinity	Effiminicity
Hetero
Homo

forevercloud3000 said: I think this discussion is easier once we really start to eliminate what it is NOT. It most assuredly cannot be a conscious choice so that is out of the question. That leaves... -Subconscious -Genetic -Environmental Factors/Social Now to just come up with definitive definitions of those three, look for what it has in common, and go from there.

For me, environmental and subconscious one in the same, essentially. It's really just two possibilities for me: Pre-birth factors (genetics) and post-birth factors; Nature vs Nurture

Jay520 said: forevercloud3000 said: Outward stimuli also can influence our eating habits but It will never go dictate our genetic desire to eat when hungry. I've learned that someone's sexual preference is a constant, never seems to change. If it directly be dictated by outward forces people could actually be "Ex-Gay". But all of my study has proven that apparently once you go gay(at whatever degree they are), you never go back...and I can't believe something that isn't genetic yet influenced would be that way. This is not to be confused with someone's actual level of sexual preference of being more bisexual in nature and going back and forth between the two. That is not quitting gaydom and becoming straight, that is you like both and freely choose between the two. To believe otherwise is to say with enough conditioning therapy one can be switched to either or and I don't believe that is true for me or anyone else. The fact that 2 kids born in the same home, raised the same way and still one is hetero, the other homo. Or the fact that some areas of the world are so blatantly hostile to gays that they are threatened with tortures and death such as anal gluing(they inject a paste up the anus that hardens and makes it impossible to deficate without tearing your anus inside out which leads to a slow and excruciating death) yet STILL homosexuality prevails as a supposed "sub/con choice". If anything that would force someone to subconsciously surpress those feelings. Yet sexual desires are almost uncontrollable in that aspect. We like what we like sexually(as far as him or her) and that never seems to change. Pretty much agree with everything except these two paragraphs. For the first paragraph: If something is the result of what you learned, that doesn't imply that it would be constantly changing (or even changeable) as you learn new things. For example, one perspective of psychology states that the bulk our personalities are pretty much set at around age 5-6. So while we can learn new behavior, our subconscious is essentially already developed. For the record, I do believe that with sufficient therapy, the mind can be conditioned to some pretty bizarre and dramatic changes; the mind is a lot more controllable and powerful than many may think. But this is more based on my own experience and is just a personal belief. And as for the second paragraph: We can only assume parts of their environmental are equal (equal home, region, family, etc). However, they're sense of self could be vastly different. For example, one could be more outgoing and one more shy. One could be more favored in the family than another. One couls develop different social groups than the other. In essence its quite possible that these kids develop vastly different mindsets and different positions in their social groups. The implications of these seemingly minor discrepancies can have a profound effect on something like sexual preference.

Ok I will give you those. The mind is the last frontier and full of possibilities. It is not completely uncommon for human's to alter genetic ability when faced with an obstacle. For instance...level of sensory will dramatically highten when one of the senses(usually sight) is gone.

There are also theories that homosexuality could be a byproduct of the two  brain hemespheres not completely seperating. All kinds of strange things happen when this occurs such as some people gain the ability to see sound, or taste sight/colors, or people seeing upside down.

Since you believe it is Environmental factors, what kind? Mind you, these supposed environmental factors have to be indigenous to all over the world.

forevercloud3000 said: Ok I will give you those. The mind is the last frontier and full of possibilities. It is not completely uncommon for human's to alter genetic ability when faced with an obstacle. For instance...level of sensory will dramatically highten when one of the senses(usually sight) is gone. There are also theories that homosexuality could be a byproduct of the two  brain hemespheres not completely seperating. All kinds of strange things happen when this occurs such as some people gain the ability to see sound, or taste sight/colors, or people seeing upside down. Since you believe it is Environmental factors, what kind? Mind you, these supposed environmental factors have to be indigenous to all over the world.

There probably aren't any definitive evinronmental factors that for sure causes a certain sexual preference. Considering how complicated and delicate the human mind is, I'm pretty sure the causes of sexual preference is also complicated and delicate. I'm not trying to make any "cut and dry" statements here. I don't want to say that "this factor will cause this outcome." I think sexual preference is caused similar to most components of our mind; that is, we learn behavior and form beliefs, personalities, values, etc. as a result of what we learn in life.

I don't have any specific factors in mind when I say environmental factors. By environmental factors, I merely mean everything that occurs after birth that effects a person's mind and behavior. 

Perhaps for clarification, I should note that I consider sexual preference a subconscious development much like many other preferences. Example: favorite color, favorite music/genre, etc. Perhaps more closely related are things like favorite hair color on women (or men), preferred personality type of women, etc. I think most would agree that these things aren't dictated by genetics, yet at the same time, we cannot necessarily point to any concrete factors that definitely causes these preferences. Sexual preference follows similar patterns imo.

For example, I firmly believe that a large portion of heterosexuals are heterosexual as a result of society portraying heterosexuality as the default position. Before children even attain sexual urges, they already know what gender they should be attracted to. This mentality that you will be attracted to the opposite eventually causes children to be attracted to the opposite sex. As children develop their sexual urges, they're going to be looking at the opposite sex as the attractive group and the same sex as not. Imagine a society where somehow the homosexual population was a lot closer to 50% and there was no default position. There would undoubtly be a lot more children who consider homosexuality because they won't have any presuppositions on what they should prefer. This of course isn't the result of genetics; it's the result of society and how it effects what people think they should be. 

I wish there was some study that raised two different groups of kids. One in an environment similar to our own, and one in an environment which portrays no sexual preference as default. It would be interesting to see just how many more kids in the second group turn out homosexual and just how much of an impact conformity can play on what we eventually believe to be genuinely what we want.

Cub said: Roma said: I used to believe I was born gay because if I did believe that, it felt better and I could just say I'm born this way. If there is a homo gene is there one for bisexuals as well? why don't these genes get passed down to the offspring as genes do? if there was a gene then there would be more homos/bi than just 3% of the human population! (correct my number if I'm wrong) I think its all in the head I mean even the attraction between two people who think it is love is actually only hormones that trigger your psych and make you think you are in love! Unlike gametes mutations, mutated genes in somatic cells don't get inheretid , read this and you will get a better idea of what I am talking about. You can replace retardation with homosexuality, since this is a guessing thread anyway. Also why would the homosexual population go up when we don't reproduce as much as the heterosexual people? We don't understand 98% of our DNA, and that's why we've been calling it junk DNA until recently, god knows what's embeded in there. So really, it's too early to exclud genetic causes.

well maybe you didn't know this but a lot of homosexual people get married and produce children or donate sperms so yeah the blood does go on even without having sex with the opposite sex. there now you learned something new!

besides not even the scientists know what is going on. Its all theories until there is proof!

Roma said: Cub said: Roma said: I used to believe I was born gay because if I did believe that, it felt better and I could just say I'm born this way. If there is a homo gene is there one for bisexuals as well? why don't these genes get passed down to the offspring as genes do? if there was a gene then there would be more homos/bi than just 3% of the human population! (correct my number if I'm wrong) I think its all in the head I mean even the attraction between two people who think it is love is actually only hormones that trigger your psych and make you think you are in love! Unlike gametes mutations, mutated genes in somatic cells don't get inheretid , read this and you will get a better idea of what I am talking about. You can replace retardation with homosexuality, since this is a guessing thread anyway. Also why would the homosexual population go up when we don't reproduce as much as the heterosexual people? We don't understand 98% of our DNA, and that's why we've been calling it junk DNA until recently, god knows what's embeded in there. So really, it's too early to exclud genetic causes. well maybe you didn't know this but a lot of homosexual people get married and produce children or donate sperms so yeah the blood does go on even without having sex with the opposite sex. there now you learned something new! besides not even the scientists know what is going on. Its all theories until there is proof!

We don't reproduce as much. "As much" is the keyword here.

Jay520 said: forevercloud3000 said: Ok I will give you those. The mind is the last frontier and full of possibilities. It is not completely uncommon for human's to alter genetic ability when faced with an obstacle. For instance...level of sensory will dramatically highten when one of the senses(usually sight) is gone. There are also theories that homosexuality could be a byproduct of the two  brain hemespheres not completely seperating. All kinds of strange things happen when this occurs such as some people gain the ability to see sound, or taste sight/colors, or people seeing upside down. Since you believe it is Environmental factors, what kind? Mind you, these supposed environmental factors have to be indigenous to all over the world. There probably aren't any definitive evinronmental factors that for sure causes a certain sexual preference. Considering how complicated and delicate the human mind is, I'm pretty sure the causes of sexual preference is also complicated and delicate. I'm not trying to make any "cut and dry" statements here. I don't want to say that "this factor will cause this outcome." I think sexual preference is caused similar to most components of our mind; that is, we learn behavior and form beliefs, personalities, values, etc. as a result of what we learn in life. I don't have any specific factors in mind when I say environmental factors. By environmental factors, I merely mean everything that occurs after birth that effects a person's mind and behavior.  Perhaps for clarification, I should note that I consider sexual preference a subconscious development much like many other preferences. Example: favorite color, favorite music/genre, etc. Perhaps more closely related are things like favorite hair color on women (or men), preferred personality type of women, etc. I think most would agree that these things aren't dictated by genetics, yet at the same time, we cannot necessarily point to any concrete factors that definitely causes these preferences. Sexual preference follows similar patterns imo. For example, I firmly believe that a large portion of heterosexuals are heterosexual as a result of society portraying heterosexuality as the default position. Before children even attain sexual urges, they already know what gender they should be attracted to. This mentality that you will be attracted to the opposite eventually causes children to be attracted to the opposite sex. As children develop their sexual urges, they're going to be looking at the opposite sex as the attractive group and the same sex as not. Imagine a society where somehow the homosexual population was a lot closer to 50% and there was no default position. There would undoubtly be a lot more children who consider homosexuality because they won't have any presuppositions on what they should prefer. This of course isn't the result of genetics; it's the result of society and how it effects what people think they should be.  I wish there was some study that raised two different groups of kids. One in an environment similar to our own, and one in an environment which portrays no sexual preference as default. It would be interesting to see just how many more kids in the second group turn out homosexual and just how much of an impact conformity can play on what we eventually believe to be genuinely what we want.

I just want to hear an educated guess on the matter, thats all. You must be able to at least come up with something that would fit into the enviornmental factors mold if you hold that belief.

Sexual inclination seems very different than just liking a particular color,music/genre, etc. These things frequently change in children going into adult hood....and often. Sex tho is a constant. There have been studies that interviewed and studied brain wave function on "Ex-Gays" and it shows that they all had the same chemical reactions in the brain that they did before. Many of them admitting out right that their feelings never changed, just how they thought about them.

The children studies have been loosely done. It just really becomes a problem of ethics at that point lol. Does anyone want someone poking and proding at their child to try and make them gay or unmake them?