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NiKKoM said:
brendude13 said:

So IMAX is expensive, but many recent films have still used it right and would benefit from being remastered at 4k? What would the horizontal resolution be of a film from the 60's and a film from the 00's, complete with the soundtrack? You said it wouldn't come close to 3840, but wouldn't anything over 3000, still closer to 4k than 1080p, still be worth the remaster?

As for films degrading over time, how easy is it to restore them? After seeing how great the Bond films looked in 1080p, I assumed that anything from the 80's or later wouldn't have suffered enough for it not to be worth remastering in 4k.

Sorry for all the questions, I don't know much about film.

EDIT: I see why you mentioned Super 35 and posted those pictures because the soundtrack is missing on that one.

no many recent films are upscaled to IMAX.. they have a new technique for that.. a few films like the Dark Knight Rises are actually also shot with IMAX Cameras..

Well depending on the aspect ratio it determines the horizontal resolution: let's take widescreen as an example
on a newer 35mm with 4000 lines the aspect ratio and soundtrack will give you a screen resolution of ~3100 lines so 3k..
the newer 35mm with finer grain (better detail, more lines) are from the 1980.
So a pre 1980 film with around 3000 lines using the widescreen aspect ration would be around ~2400 lines.. so closer to 2k..

a 4K scan can capture more stuff then a 2K scan, but it isn't really necessary cause as you can see there isn't actually that more information on the original film.. the danger here is that the movie gets upscaled to 4K it can give you actually a worse image quality then 2K..
Last month we had HD commercial, 1080p, upscaled to 4K for use in cinema... which didn't go to wel cause the colors and image blurred out...
So with a 35mm the same will happen but less drastic then my HD commercial.. upscaling film is never a good thing..

As for films degrading over time, how easy is it to restore them? well you can't restore them when you scan them... now the trick is to find the best copy out there with the least wear, scratches, dust, light exposure, etc..  all of that effect the quality.. you can only clean the 35mm but not repair scratches, burn marks, light exposure..  most of the time the 1st master film will have wear and tear because of the process making copies of it.. that's why some movies take a long time to have a blu ray version.. finding source material they can scan in can be difficult.. the older the movie, how harder it gets.. after they film is scanned they can make digitally repairs.. but not everything..

I do think 4K is the future, with 4K videocamera's but it will take time...

Would it not be beneficial to color resolution though? All digital videos go through 4:2:0 chroma subsampling before compression begins.
Effectively leaving you with 960x540 for color resolution. (That's why upscaling causes color bleeding) I suppose this is not going to change for 4K blu-rays, but those will have 1920x1080 color info when captured from the original.

Is 35mm film good enough to capture full 2K digital color at least?
It should be for Disney movies at least, I read somewhere that they store their movies with the color info split out into separate black and white reels for better conservation. Then they are combined again to make a full color version.



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SvennoJ said:

Would it not be beneficial to color resolution though? All digital videos go through 4:2:0 chroma subsampling before compression begins.
Effectively leaving you with 960x540 for color resolution. (That's why upscaling causes color bleeding) I suppose this is not going to change for 4K blu-rays, but those will have 1920x1080 color info when captured from the original.

Is 35mm film good enough to capture full 2K digital color at least?
It should be for Disney movies at least, I read somewhere that they store their movies with the color info split out into separate black and white reels for better conservation. Then they are combined again to make a full color version.

no not really.. the scanned film in 2k or 4k are stored as DPX files. The file format is most commonly used to represent the density of each colour channel of a scanned negative film in an uncompressed "logarithmic" image where the gamma of the original camera negative is preserved as taken by a film scanner. (took that from wikipedia) lets just say it's the best of the best for color, it's raw ,it isn't compressed.. they capture full color.. it's the medium and compression after that that uses chroma subsampeling.. blu ray only supports 4:2:0 so maybe the medium after that will use 4:4:4





 

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brendude13 said:

So it's only 4k if it uses an aspect ratio close to 4:3 that covers the whole film? And the film won't have a horizontal resolution equivelant to around 3840? The resolution is still much higher than 1080p and closer to 4k and I've heard that it can vary throughout a film, so wouldn't it still benefit from being remastered at that resolution? I've also heard that any IMAX film will have more quality than 4k.

The theoretical maximum for fine-grained 35mm film is about 8700*5800 pixels or about 50 Megapixels. So regardless of aspect ratio, any 35nm film could be scanned to better than 4k resolution (whether you want/can do that or not depends on your budget and film quality).



shoudnt the screen be 6 times bigger also?



but i mean, the 1080p was only noticeable more or less with TVs bigger than 40"
so i assume this 6 times more res. would require at least a 50-60" TV or something to be noticeable over the 1080p or 2k resolutions?



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Damn it!!! And I will only be able to afford to upgrade to a 1080p 50" LCD TV by the time PS4 comes out.

Always behind the curve with tech is me

I do wonder what the cost of putting in 4K output will be for the PS4. Hopefully it's only an extra $20 over having a 1080p unit. I suppose, given PS4 won't have the grunt to do 4K in games Sony could put out a 1080p sku and a slightly more expensive 4K sku. 4K for the movie and gaming buff, but for the gamer only you can get the cheaper 1080 sku. Be nice for the committed core gamer to be able to get the cheaper sku for once.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

DieAppleDie said:
but i mean, the 1080p was only noticeable more or less with TVs bigger than 40"
so i assume this 6 times more res. would require at least a 50-60" TV or something to be noticeable over the 1080p or 2k resolutions?

If that were true then one wouldn't need anything better than 720 for tablets. But apparently high res tablets look way better than medium res.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

NiKKoM said:

no many recent films are upscaled to IMAX.. they have a new technique for that.. a few films like the Dark Knight Rises are actually also shot with IMAX Cameras..

Well depending on the aspect ratio it determines the horizontal resolution: let's take widescreen as an example
on a newer 35mm with 4000 lines the aspect ratio and soundtrack will give you a screen resolution of ~3100 lines so 3k..
the newer 35mm with finer grain (better detail, more lines) are from the 1980.
So a pre 1980 film with around 3000 lines using the widescreen aspect ration would be around ~2400 lines.. so closer to 2k..

a 4K scan can capture more stuff then a 2K scan, but it isn't really necessary cause as you can see there isn't actually that more information on the original film.. the danger here is that the movie gets upscaled to 4K it can give you actually a worse image quality then 2K..
Last month we had HD commercial, 1080p, upscaled to 4K for use in cinema... which didn't go to wel cause the colors and image blurred out...
So with a 35mm the same will happen but less drastic then my HD commercial.. upscaling film is never a good thing..

As for films degrading over time, how easy is it to restore them? well you can't restore them when you scan them... now the trick is to find the best copy out there with the least wear, scratches, dust, light exposure, etc..  all of that effect the quality.. you can only clean the 35mm but not repair scratches, burn marks, light exposure..  most of the time the 1st master film will have wear and tear because of the process making copies of it.. that's why some movies take a long time to have a blu ray version.. finding source material they can scan in can be difficult.. the older the movie, how harder it gets.. after they film is scanned they can make digitally repairs.. but not everything..

I do think 4K is the future, with 4K videocamera's but it will take time...

They're upscaled to IMAX? How exactly does that work and how is it an advantage over traditional film? I also thought that it was only the vertical resolution that was affected by aspect ratio. Does upscaling affect film more than digital video? Because upscaling doesn't usually affect image quality.

Do you think digital videocameras will replace film? Is there any reason why it hasn't yet?



drkohler said:
brendude13 said:

So it's only 4k if it uses an aspect ratio close to 4:3 that covers the whole film? And the film won't have a horizontal resolution equivelant to around 3840? The resolution is still much higher than 1080p and closer to 4k and I've heard that it can vary throughout a film, so wouldn't it still benefit from being remastered at that resolution? I've also heard that any IMAX film will have more quality than 4k.

The theoretical maximum for fine-grained 35mm film is about 8700*5800 pixels or about 50 Megapixels. So regardless of aspect ratio, any 35nm film could be scanned to better than 4k resolution (whether you want/can do that or not depends on your budget and film quality).

Nobody actually has reached that theoretcal maximum.. there are limits because of equipement, lenses, film grain quailty and the time you can actually stand still for a few minutes to capture at that detail... it's impossible on 35mm to reach that... especially in movies.. even the best could only reach around 4k full frame.. that's why it's theoretical...





 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!) 

brendude13 said:

They're upscaled to IMAX? How exactly does that work and how is it an advantage over traditional film? I also thought that it was only the vertical resolution that was affected by aspect ratio. Does upscaling affect film more than digital video? Because upscaling doesn't usually affect image quality.

Do you think digital videocameras will replace film? Is there any reason why it hasn't yet?

It's called IMAX DMR but has it's limitations... and I don't know how they do it.. it's propetairy..
Well you wouldn't really noticed a difference when an entire movie is upscaled.. but have you seen the Dark Knight Rises in a IMAX theater?
There was a noticable difference between the IMAX camera shot scene's and the traditional 35MM.. the 35MM scenes were upscaled to IMAX resolution.. it looked good but the difference in the amount of detail you could see in the IMAX camera shot scenes was noticable..

Digital 4k Camera will replace film, but they are expensive, and they are technically not as good yet.. (4K can max 30 fps but when you want nice slowmotion, fast chase scenes you want to use more fps)  also movie theaters are not equipped with 4k projecters.. most of them have 2k projecters.. so there isn't a need for 4K within the next years



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!)